Lagering In A Corny

[dougsbrew]

i thought i'd throw in my 2 cents worth.
i wouldnt condition in a corny for long periods bribie.
my reason being that movement of liquid over steel
creates electrolysis. how this would effect beer i'm not sure.
even though its in fridge which lets say comes on at 4c and
off at 2c creates movement(warmer beer rises, colder beer falls).
i find that the last beer i pour out of my corny keg starts to
take on a slight steel taste.
lets look at a VB can(dirty word on this forum). the inside of
the can is coated with a polymer to stop alloy effecting beer.
a can of baked beans will be coated inside with a white film,
once again to stop steel effecting the product.
i dont know if cornies have a polymer coat inside, im thinking not.
therefore IMO my top choices for lagering for long periods.
1. glass carboy/ stubbies.
2. plastic cube/fermenter (older being better(no new plastic flavour)).
3. corny.

 

[unrealeous]

therefore IMO my top choices for lagering for long periods.
1. glass carboy/ stubbies.
2. plastic cube/fermenter (older being better(no new plastic flavour)).
3. corny.

hmm - interesting point of view - but I'd have to questing how much electrolysis goes on with stainless steal in the absence of oxygen.
I'd agree with you on the glass point, but my preference would be lagering in a corny over plastic - my cubes get that plastic smell (when empty) so I always wonder what chemicals they leach into the beer. Anyway - each to their own.

[Edit - Actually plastic is no good for long term lagering as it is not impervious to oxygen]

 

[Bribie G]

The Czech breweries used to use huge wooden barrels lined with pitch but nowadays use SS, but maybe it's coated.

 

[raven19]

Give me a positively pressurised vessel any day of the week. So nothing outside can get in to ruin my beer.

 

[egolds77]

All the brewerys around the world who larger in their stainless steel conicals must be doing it all wrong I guess

 

[dougsbrew]

hmm - interesting point of view - but I'd have to questing how much electrolysis goes on with stainless steal in the absence of oxygen.
I'd agree with you on the glass point, but my preference would be lagering in a corny over plastic - my cubes get that plastic smell (when empty) so I always wonder what chemicals they leach into the beer. Anyway - each to their own.

[Edit - Actually plastic is no good for long term lagering as it is not impervious to oxygen]

i'm no scientist but their is 2 oxygen atoms in water that is in contact with the stainless.
my work on boats, lots of stainless - electrolysis problems. they spend lots of money
preventing this problem with electronic gadgets and coatings.
as for cubes, mine is many years old, i cant detect any plastic smells/flavour.
but i take your point, without having more info on hand 3 could be a better than option2.

 

[dougsbrew]

All the brewerys around the world who larger in their stainless steel conicals must be doing it all wrong I guess

do they lager for long periods of time in stainless steel elton? name one.
my beleif is that its a short period of time as time is money.
generally 2 weeks and its in a plastic coated can or a bottle.
lets look at wine brewers, generally made in stainless, breifly conditioned
then pumped into casks and bottles that can be purchased for under $10.
good wines are transfered into wooden barrels to condition, not that they
cant afford stainless vessels, they choose not to condition in stainless.
wines conditioned this way can fetch big $$$.
destillers also condition in wood as compared to stainless.
for those of us in brissy, the breakfast creek hotel does a four x bitter
coditioned in a wooden barrel(only place in aus to do this), its a great drop.
dont get me wrong, stainless is great, perfect for home brewing.
however i beleive that its not the best choice for long periods of storage.

 

[argon]

Budweiser age for 3 weeks in stainless tanks filled with some beechwood.

Edit; heineken also lager in stainless bright tanks for 40 days

 

[dougsbrew]

Budweiser age for 3 weeks in stainless tanks filled with some beechwood.

Edit; heineken also lager in stainless bright tanks for 40 days

really 40 days, where did you get this informtion from?
just for the record to previous post my defiition of long periods is >3 months.

edit- just doing the sums. say 10 days brewing 40 days conditioning=50 days.
thats only 7 brews a year

 

[Florian]

I'm no scientist either but two things I would like to add to this:

lets look at a VB can(dirty word on this forum). the inside of
the can is coated with a polymer to stop alloy effecting beer.
a can of baked beans will be coated inside with a white film,
once again to stop steel effecting the product.

VB baked bean cans are not made out of stainless steel like cornies are. From memory the polymer coating prevents oxydisation once the can is opened.

my work on boats, lots of stainless - electrolysis problems. they spend lots of money
preventing this problem with electronic gadgets and coatings.

When boaties talk about electrolysis it's usually in conjunction with salt water. If you only use your boat in fresh water there are no issues with electrolysis.

Actually, while typing this, I just quickly refreshed my school knowledge, and came accross this from here:

Electrolytic Corrosion (Electrolysis) occurs when dissimilar metals are in contact in the presence of an electrolyte, such as water (moisture) containing very small amounts of acid. (...)
When any two metals in this list are in contact, with an electrolytic present, the one with the lower number is corroded.

So what would be your second metal which is in direct contact with your liquid then, apart from the stainless steel present in cornies?

For now, I won't believe this electrolysis theory until someone explains this properly.


EDIT: grammar

 

[Florian]

edit- just doing the sums. say 10 days brewing 40 days conditioning=50 days.
thats only 7 brews a year

That's if you have only one tank available. I somehow think that Heineken has a few more than that...

They could brew ten times a day and still lager for 40 days if they have the right amount of vessels. I could also imagine that they blend several batches together into one huge lagering tank.

 

[haysie]

In a few days time I'll be lagering a proposed comp entry (a Pilsner) and intend to lager it at fridge temp until probably the end of May. Whilst I've regularly cold conditioned beers for up to a month in Willow cubes I'm a bit suss on keeping a beer for many months in one. Does anyone here lager in cornies? I would guess that being SS and impervious to oxygen they would be a good bet. ? Would it benefit from carbing to a low fizz first before putting away?

I lager in kegs, I have a weizenbock some 6 months old + that on a treat night I`ll attach. Horses for courses i.e fridge space, keg space etc. Nowadays I do most my post fermentation in a keg because the utility costs were killing me to cc in a seperate fridge. I have lotsa kegs and a few of these have cut back dip tubes for that very reason of either lagering or finishing a stubborn yeast.
I dont think carbing the beer before putting away is nesacary, as long as the air is burped, you will have a better environment than the fermenter.

 

[TidalPete]

That's if you have only one tank available. I somehow think that Heineken has a few more than that...

They could brew ten times a day and still lager for 40 days if they have the right amount of vessels. I could also imagine that they blend several batches together into one huge lagering tank.

+1
You beat me to it Florian & I agree with you 100% re your Post 30 on galvanic corrosion.

TP

 

[haysie]

+1
You beat me to it Florian & I agree with you 100% re your Post 30 on galvanic corrosion.

TP

I dont get it.

 

[dougsbrew]

I'm no scientist either but two things I would like to add to this:




VB baked bean cans are not made out of stainless steel like cornies are. From memory the polymer coating prevents oxydisation once the can is opened.


When boaties talk about electrolysis it's usually in conjunction with salt water. If you only use your boat in fresh water there are no issues with electrolysis.

Actually, while typing this, I just quickly refreshed my school knowledge, and came accross this from here:

Electrolytic Corrosion (Electrolysis) occurs when dissimilar metals are in contact in the presence of an electrolyte, such as water (moisture) containing very small amounts of acid. (...)
When any two metals in this list are in contact, with an electrolytic present, the one with the lower number is corroded.

So what would be your second metal then, apart from the stainless steel present in cornies, which is in direct contact with your liquid?

For now, I won't believe this electrolysis theory until someone explains this properly.

once again i'm no sceintist, hopefully one can comment.
maybe the small amounts of zinc potasium copper etc in tap water can make this happen.
maybe metals in the manufacture of stainless such as nickel could be the other electrode.
if i had more time on my hands maybe i would research this further and come up with an answer.
you may have missed point about vb-bb can. why are they coated? stainless is a steel alloy.
i noted that you say its to stop oxidisation upon opening. a can of beer isnt open that long(hopefully ).
more info can be found here if interested about stainless makeup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

 

[Florian]

you may have missed point about vb-bb can. why are they coated? stainless is a steel alloy.

I haven't missed your point. I pointed out that you are comparing aluminium cans (VB) with stainless steel kegs. Am not sure how comparable they are in terms of corrosion. And I'm not saying that stainless can't corrode at all, I'm just not sure how easy and to which extend compared to aluminium.

As to baked beans etc, from memory they are coated to prevent corrosion caused by oxygen once the cans are opened. That's why it's recommended to refill the contents of an opened uncoated can into a separate (e.g. plastic) container if not used all at once. (reference: read the fine print on your average Aldi tuna tin for example)

EDIT: added uncoated

 

[TidalPete]

I dont get it.

haysie,

It means quite simply that I agree with Florian re his posts 30 AND 31.
We'll talk about this in more depth on the 2nd.

TP

 

[dougsbrew]

I stumbled accross this link whilst on homedestiller.org website last night.
written by john palmer who we know for his excellent work in how to brew.
as it relates to the discussion we were having i thought i'd insert a few
sentences from the document of most relevance. the full document can be found here. http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/brewcorr.txt

Beer is corrosive. Not only is beer acidic but it contains live microfauna
which can cause bio-fouling and bio-corrosion. Beer can be corrosive to the
tanks and fluid lines used in the brewing process, and it can be corrosive to
the brewery building too.
Galvanic Corrosion
All corrosion is basically galvanic (over-generalization). The electrochemical
difference between two metals in an electrolyte causes electrons to flow and
ions to be created. These ions combine with oxygen or other elements to create
corrosion products. An electrolyte can be defined as any liquid containing dissolved ions ex. tap water.
Stainless Steel
The corrosion inhibitor in stainless steel is the passive oxide layer that
protects the surface. Passivated appearance will be lightly grayed.
The 300 series alloys commonly used in the brewing industry are much more
corrosion resistant and when passivated are basically inert to the beer.
Passivation is a process in which oxidizing acids are used to build up the
protective oxide layer. Its what makes Stainless stainless. These steels do
have their Achilles Heel and that heel is Chlorine, which is common in cleaning solutions.

theres some good info in his document.
look out for scratching the bottom of your corny with dip tube, definetly dont use a
scourer and avoid using bleach.

 

[thelastspud]

destillers also condition in wood as compared to stainless.

This is nothing to do with oxidation lots of the flavours and all of the colours come out of the wood.

 

[dougsbrew]

This is nothing to do with oxidation lots of the flavours and all of the colours come out of the wood.

yes i am aware of this, but would you know if there would be any adverse
effects of long term storage of distallite in a stainless steel vessel.

Edit- sorry guys getting a little OT here, lets change distallite to beer...