PET Kegs and more

[Keg King]

Starting a new thread here about PET Kegs for the home and craft brewers. A competitor of ours suggested on AHB recently for people to try using one of our low cost fermenters in a trial to see how well beer would store for 3-6 months. We cannot gauge the motive behind this accurately but suspect that it was not to be for our benefit. Also as the competitor sells their own PET fermenters why would they not suggest the trial be done in one of theirs? The only reason we can think of is that maybe they think their PET performs worse in Oxygen transmission than ours and/or they might be concerned their vessel could rupture. Home brewers from around the globe are putting up pictures daily of the product exploding with some cases showing how dangerous this can potentially be.

Anyway its a good reason to open this up and talk about PET kegs and how they are made, used and disposed of. We look forward to a good discussion on here about what home brewers would like to see and have. In regard to the Fermenter King Junior which the competitor mentions we do not market this as a keg but as a very low cost pressure fermenter. It uses the same PET that is used in the rest of our PET Fermenter Family. Now we have some data about people using the the larger ones to store beer for almost three months.

PET of course does have some permeability to Oxygen and for commercial breweries there is the need to strive and have this at the lowest possible. They are selling a product that must meet their specifications and having it alter in a long term storage situation is not acceptable. For the home brewer storing it for 3-6 months whilst low oxygen ingress is desirable, it is also not so serious and so far we have not seen 10-12 weeks wreak any great havoc with flavours.

Of course when we market a PET Keg then it is made with an appropriate Oxygen barrier and we will talk about this later. For the moment lets see what interests home brewers have in acquiring and using PET fermenter/keg combos and Keg only needs. Looking forward to hearing from you and wondering what would make you try a PET Keg.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

The first paragraph is completely unnecessary and just sounds like another whinge.
Get over it, be the bigger man and move on.

On topic...
Is it possible to have a keg with a 99% oxygen barrier and maybe a small clear strip top to bottom acting as a sight glass?

 

[kadmium]

Look, in my opinion I think your 'competitor' should worry about their own backyard before anything else. Last few items I bought from there I returned for a refund or threw in the bin. That said, I have gotten some good gear from there (ph meter) and such. So, I hate seeing this constant crap about KK vs KL and every time I post I fear someone will accuse me of being an employee of either. So, not to be offensive but this post could have been made without continuing the **** fight between KK and KL, and simply been put as a venture into PET kegs. Just my opinion.

So, disclaimer - I am not, nor ever have been an employee of either KL or KK or even anything remotely to do with brewing. I work in education.

As such, I would love a PET keg. I like my SS corny kegs, however I find them heavy when empty, expensive to buy and while I have the original USA made ones, they have started to rust around the post threads etc. I like SS, but to be honest I don't care if their KK or KL kegs, being made in China makes me a little suspect on the quality from BOTH of you.

I have had several SS fittings recently that are saturated in cutting oils, and left a noticeable sheen across the water. No matter how much I scrubbed, I ended up throwing one away. I've also had 'food grade' silicone hose that smelled so strongly of plasticiser and curing agents it was banned from coming into the house. It went back to where I bought it, and I found platinum cured hose made in the USA which was MUCH better.

So, on that note, I think PET kegs (if made in Melbourne like the fermenters) would be a no brainer for me. I will keep some SS kegs for long term storage if I intend to lager or age, but PET kegs would be on heavy rotation. I mainly brew NEIPAs etc which are gone in 2-3 weeks so yeah, if they were priced around the same as a Junior (around $50) I would happily purchase 2 rather than 1 SS.

 

[Keg King]

The first paragraph is completely unnecessary and just sounds like another whinge.
Get over it, be the bigger man and move on.

On topic...
Is it possible to have a keg with a 99% oxygen barrier and maybe a small clear strip top to bottom acting as a sight glass?

Thanks for the input and at 6ft 4 I am quite comfortable.

Not possible what you suggest.

 

[Hangover68]

PET kegs that utilise the same screw on caps as the fermenters could be a good thing, if they keep as well as the PET bottles then i'd be keen on using them.

 

[Keg King]

Look, in my opinion I think your 'competitor' should worry about their own backyard before anything else. Last few items I bought from there I returned for a refund or threw in the bin. That said, I have gotten some good gear from there (ph meter) and such. So, I hate seeing this constant crap about KK vs KL and every time I post I fear someone will accuse me of being an employee of either. So, not to be offensive but this post could have been made without continuing the **** fight between KK and KL, and simply been put as a venture into PET kegs. Just my opinion.

So, disclaimer - I am not, nor ever have been an employee of either KL or KK or even anything remotely to do with brewing. I work in education.

As such, I would love a PET keg. I like my SS corny kegs, however I find them heavy when empty, expensive to buy and while I have the original USA made ones, they have started to rust around the post threads etc. I like SS, but to be honest I don't care if their KK or KL kegs, being made in China makes me a little suspect on the quality from BOTH of you.

I have had several SS fittings recently that are saturated in cutting oils, and left a noticeable sheen across the water. No matter how much I scrubbed, I ended up throwing one away. I've also had 'food grade' silicone hose that smelled so strongly of plasticiser and curing agents it was banned from coming into the house. It went back to where I bought it, and I found platinum cured hose made in the USA which was MUCH better.

So, on that note, I think PET kegs (if made in Melbourne like the fermenters) would be a no brainer for me. I will keep some SS kegs for long term storage if I intend to lager or age, but PET kegs would be on heavy rotation. I mainly brew NEIPAs etc which are gone in 2-3 weeks so yeah, if they were priced around the same as a Junior (around $50) I would happily purchase 2 rather than 1 SS.

Well I fully agree with that and I really don’t want to spend time on it but I will not let it go unchallenged if its not right. Bad enough they still use our trademarks and names.

Our PET kegs are made in Melbourne and they will be well under $50 so your might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Keg King]

PET kegs that utilise the same screw on caps as the fermenters could be a good thing, if they keep as well as the PET bottles then i'd be keen on using them.

They use the same Lids as our Fermenter King Junior units. They will keep as well or better as those PET bottles.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

Can you elaborate why it isn't possible?
Does it all have to be layered before it gets blow moulded?
Is there anything that can be added post moulding to cover the majority of the vessel?

 

[kadmium]

View attachment 118805

Can you elaborate why it isn't possible?
Does it all have to be layered before it gets blow moulded?
Is there anything that can be added post moulding to cover the majority of the vessel?

Just buy a clear one and spray paint it black!

But in all honesty, you would have to keep the PET ones in the dark otherwise it may go skunky

 

[kadmium]

Well I fully agree with that and I really don’t want to spend time on it but I will not let it go unchallenged if its not right. Bad enough they still use our trademarks and names.

Our PET kegs are made in Melbourne and they will be well under $50 so your might be pleasantly surprised.

Oh man that sounds so far up my alley! Put me down for some for SURE

 

[Reg Holt]

I wouldn't be bothered about what Keg Land has to say, I would say most on here are capable of reading between the lines on their negative remarks about Keg King as sour grapes, we haven't got it, so we will sling some **** and see if it sticks. I have 4 Juniors now and I haven't waited 3 or4 months to check for any ingress of oxygen. I am more than happy with them and looking forward to see what else Keg King comes up with, at least their product performs as it should without the chance of losing any beer, or an eye.

 

[Keg King]

View attachment 118805

Can you elaborate why it isn't possible?
Does it all have to be layered before it gets blow moulded?
Is there anything that can be added post moulding to cover the majority of the vessel?

Vertically fat - love it. The PET has the Oxygen Barrier components and other things added before it is blown. So there is no layering. All happens on one smooth action.

 

[Keg King]

Oh man that sounds so far up my alley! Put me down for some for SURE

Will make them available once the lockdowns end. Might have a few for people to try before then.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

View attachment 118805

Can you elaborate why it isn't possible?
Does it all have to be layered before it gets blow moulded?
Is there anything that can be added post moulding to cover the majority of the vessel?

Coopers PET bottles are the same, they have oxygen barrier technology.

 

[Keg King]

I wouldn't be bothered about what Keg Land has to say, I would say most on here are capable of reading between the lines on their negative remarks about Keg King as sour grapes, we haven't got it, so we will sling some **** and see if it sticks. I have 4 Juniors now and I haven't waited 3 or4 months to check for any ingress of oxygen. I am more than happy with them and looking forward to see what else Keg King comes up with, at least their product performs as it should without the chance of losing any beer, or an eye.

We know they will always try and I think you are right about the grapes bit.

From what our experts tell us the actual ingress of Oxygen is actually not really that much so I think people using them as you are would be hard pressed to tell any difference.

In terms of what else is coming out we do have the chubby (30 litre) of course and I am now thinking to maybe make this also with the Oxygen barrier in the silver metal colour.

 

[bduza]

PET mini kegs. The ss ones are all poorly designed - too tall once the disconnect lid thing is attached.

There is a definite market for kegs that fit in shared fridge spaces.

Could a PET mini keg be designed to lay on its side? A floating gas tube and a sinking liquid out tube? 200mm diameter and 400mm height (or whatever the standard fridge depth is). Could line 3-4 of them next to each other on a single shelf in the shared fridge, each with a picnic tap on the end.

Sodastream sized co2 bottle nestled in one of the gaps.

You have your own local manufactory so you have the opportunity to do something truly innovative. Just don't keep thinking about duplicating SS kegs that already exist. And measure up a few fridges. Put kegs into apartment life.

 

[clickeral]

What about Brown Pet?

I am still a big fan of stainless, the purchase of two snubnoses was to limit oxygen as a potential issue and gave me the volume I wanted vs using Cornies (I have 9) I have started buying smaller kegs as previously I was of the view that I like a range of beer to drink and drinking 3 19l kegs was a push

Since ive been home though have realized 19L is only 38 pints and if I am having 14-42pints a week then I am consuming more beer then I realized

I agree with the above comments about fitting a fridge better, maybe in a 2-5L format

 

[CKK]

PET mini kegs. The ss ones are all poorly designed - too tall once the disconnect lid thing is attached.

There is a definite market for kegs that fit in shared fridge spaces.

Could a PET mini keg be designed to lay on its side? A floating gas tube and a sinking liquid out tube? 200mm diameter and 400mm height (or whatever the standard fridge depth is). Could line 3-4 of them next to each other on a single shelf in the shared fridge, each with a picnic tap on the end.

Sodastream sized co2 bottle nestled in one of the gaps.

You have your own local manufactory so you have the opportunity to do something truly innovative. Just don't keep thinking about duplicating SS kegs that already exist. And measure up a few fridges. Put kegs into apartment life.

We are not duplicating cornies but responding to the main demand which is from craft breweries. Being able to offer them to home brewers is something we like to do also. Might look at smaller units later but its not on the current list I am afraid. The machinery required for this is not trivial so we have to be fairly careful about how we approach these things and do a lot of market research.

 

[CKK]

What about Brown Pet?

I am still a big fan of stainless, the purchase of two snubnoses was to limit oxygen as a potential issue and gave me the volume I wanted vs using Cornies (I have 9) I have started buying smaller kegs as previously I was of the view that I like a range of beer to drink and drinking 3 19l kegs was a push

Since ive been home though have realized 19L is only 38 pints and if I am having 14-42pints a week then I am consuming more beer then I realized

I agree with the above comments about fitting a fridge better, maybe in a 2-5L format

Brown PET with oxygen barrier is easy to do but for the moment they will be silver grey.

 

[bduza]

+1 on the market research statement. Just keep in mind that people with less space haven't bought any kegs yet. I may be one of a kind, or I may be one of an untapped market?

Regardless, good luck, I hope the product is a success and it's great seeing locally made products whether they're for me or not.

 

[CKK]

+1 on the market research statement. Just keep in mind that people with less space haven't bought any kegs yet. I may be one of a kind, or I may be one of an untapped market?

Regardless, good luck, I hope the product is a success and it's great seeing locally made products whether they're for me or not.

Look I hear you and have been very mindful of those with less space. It is something that is in our thoughts as many people in this world are not blessed with garages, garden sheds or even a decent size laundry. Just not enough hours in the day to do the lot but that market you talk about is very much worth considering.

 

[Gollywog]

I have one of the fermenter king juniors. Filled it up yesterday.
Is it now locked in place until I empty it, or can i pick it up by the plastic handles to move it somewhere else?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have one of the fermenter king juniors. Filled it up yesterday.
Is it now locked in place until I empty it, or can i pick it up by the plastic handles to move it somewhere else?

Yes, you can carry it by the handles without a problem.

 

[bbqzookeeper]

A competitor of ours suggested on AHB recently for people to try using one of our low cost fermenters in a trial to see how well beer would store for 3-6 months. We cannot gauge the motive behind this accurately but suspect that it was not to be for our benefit. Also as the competitor sells their own PET fermenters why would they not suggest the trial be done in one of theirs?

I think that people are after a combination of SHAPE (same size as a typical Corny keg), PORTABILITY (lightweight vs SS), OPACITY (being able to see the volume left over in the keg) and Low/No OXYGEN INGRESS.

I find it obvious why anyone would suggest that your product be trialled, as it's the closest available for all of those features. All other fermenters are the wrong shape to assimilate into existing kegerators. Maybe it's a compliment?

If you can design something that has the above, then I'll buy 5 today. Light exposure can be managed in my current setup, and would take translucent over opaque any day. The silver ones mentioned previously I would not buy, as I currently value reading volumes higher than the other desirable features - but that's just me.

Great work - and thanks for uploading pictures / designs. Plenty of us aren't on bookFace and appreciate the updates here.

 

[bbqzookeeper]

PET mini kegs. The ss ones are all poorly designed - too tall once the disconnect lid thing is attached.

There is a definite market for kegs that fit in shared fridge spaces.

Could a PET mini keg be designed to lay on its side?

A dedicated horizontal keg:
With a 'this way up' design that meant it didn't need any tubing inside (Can use a check-valve ball lock connector for the gas side)- I'd put money down today. Upon reflection, this would be a greater priority than the opacity, for my circumstances...

 

[wide eyed and legless]

A dedicated horizontal keg:
With a 'this way up' design that meant it didn't need any tubing inside (Can use a check-valve ball lock connector for the gas side)- I'd put money down today. Upon reflection, this would be a greater priority than the opacity, for my circumstances...

Possibly could work with a PET keg, just a thought but something like a 90 degree s/steel dip tube on the gas post pointing up to/touching the topmost edge of the keg below the shoulder. The chime would have to be removed and a shorter liquid dip tube. Being clear the gas dip tube could be placed spot on. Maybe even at a very slight angle and the gas dip tube situated right on the edge of the shoulder, making it the highest point.
The liquid tube would have to be kept at the original length if on an angle.

 

[planner]

Deleted, wrong thread. Not even drinking yet.

 

[CKK]

I think that people are after a combination of SHAPE (same size as a typical Corny keg), PORTABILITY (lightweight vs SS), OPACITY (being able to see the volume left over in the keg) and Low/No OXYGEN INGRESS.

I find it obvious why anyone would suggest that your product be trialled, as it's the closest available for all of those features. All other fermenters are the wrong shape to assimilate into existing kegerators. Maybe it's a compliment?

If you can design something that has the above, then I'll buy 5 today. Light exposure can be managed in my current setup, and would take translucent over opaque any day. The silver ones mentioned previously I would not buy, as I currently value reading volumes higher than the other desirable features - but that's just me.

Great work - and thanks for uploading pictures / designs. Plenty of us aren't on bookFace and appreciate the updates here.

Well the translucent ones are available off the shelf right now. In a couple of weeks we will also have a 30 litre version which is only $10 more. You can get one of the 30 and one of the 20 into a standard fridge without any problems.

As far as it being a "compliment " I am 100% certain it was not intended as such but I am very happy to accept it as one. I will put it together with the "imitiation is the sincerest form of flattery" which keeps us well and truly flattered.

 

[bbqzookeeper]

Well the translucent ones are available off the shelf right now.

Nah, they are 40mm too wide. I'd go from 3 kegs in my fridge down to 2...
Plus you've said the oxygen barrier is good enough, but not the best at the moment.

Worth considering for a Chrissy present, but not for wholesale replacement of my current setup.
Cheers for the prompt reply!

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

Wow saw the thread topic and though hmm this sounds good. Boy was I wrong! Got hall way through the first paragraph and not couldn't give a crap about this.

I was thinking about purchasing your new C02 cylinder but I've just changed my mind.