Lactobacillus From Sourdough

[drsmurto]

I have a stout with what i think is a lactobacillus infection.

I spent quite a bit of time reading about it as it is a smell i was not familiar with. Sort of solvent like but always quite harsh, metallic almost. Early tastings fooled me into thinking it may have simply been a hot fermentation (although it only ever got to 20C) but a week later a sour flavour has joined the smell.

I am pretty good with sanitation so couldn't figure out how i managed to get this until i was doing some reading on sourdough cultures and realised they contain lactobacillus.

Normally this wouldn't be an issue as i brew and ferment in the shed but each winter the greenie in me comes out and rather than use energy to heat a fridge i bring the fermenters inside to the kitchen.

Last year i didnt have an issue but last year i wasnt doing sourdough bread making in the kitchen. My sourdough culture has been growing for >6 months now and is coming along very nicely producing bread with a nice, strong flavour.

The other thing that has come back to bite me in the arse is my habit of taking regular samples from the fermenter to check the SG taste the beer. Each time i take a sample i am sucking in air - the same air i 'harvested' for my sourdough culture.............

Haven't ditched the stout, am actually a little curious to see how the flavour develops over time. Funny thing is that the stout is stuck at 1.020 which is ~5 points higher than i had anticipated. I was under the impression that lactobacillus would actually keep chewing through the fermentables or am i mixing that up with a different bacteria?

3 days ago i also checked the SG on my rye ESB and it smelled and tasted fantastic (and i mean fantastic, i had wet dreams on it on a handmpump....... :huh: ) so tonight i decided to rack it. Had another smell as i was racking and bam, same smell as the stout. Not impressed.

Not sure why i am being such a greenie, i pay a fortune for green energy and i have 2 fermenting fridges sitting out in the shed doing nothing <_<

Any other sourdough bakers manage to combine their hobbies?

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s i am hosting a handpump christening at the end of the month and have to either put the other stout through it (which smells and tastes fine) or brew something - stat.

p.p.s the only other small thought i had was that both these beers contain flaked rye i bought from a health food shop, first time i have used it but since both beers were boiled for 90 mins i dont see how that could be the source.

 

[Nick JD]

Lacto are everywhere. How close is your sourdough culture?

 

[QldKev]

Geeze glad Nick JD posted here,,,,,


lactobacillus finishing at 1.020 are you sure it is that? I think I would be chasing another source of infection.

QldKev

 

[drsmurto]

The ESB i thought had finished at 1.015 but tonight it read 1.010. The stout still read 1.020.

 

[QldKev]

is there any surface residual? lacto will show its ugly head.

 

[boobiedazzler]

<br />Geeze glad Nick JD posted here,,,,,

Ouch. You forgot the rolling eyes emoticon.

My limited understanding into the world of artisan baking was of the mind that sourdough starter was all about the lactobacillus.

The closest I ever got was to make and feed a starter for one week, but it was never pitched into a loaf. It died in the jar eventually.

A very active fungi-fest borne from the organisms existing in the flour, and the air we breathe. In my limited experience & knowledge.

At the time, I thought that if the lacto-pet process was poorly done, with sloppy spills on benchtops, it could affect future beer brewing outcomes.
Thankfully it hasn't. Because I was careful.

 

[QldKev]

also one totally out there question; you haven't changed to bleach for sanatising?

 

[raven19]

This isn't the no chill RIS we did at Phillip's is it fella? :blink:

Lifting/moving the fermentor would certainly encourage air to get sucked into the vessel (with or without airlock), taking lid off even worse - but surely lacto would take a lot longer to take hold?

Yeast type and generation and amount pitched?

 

[notung]

Any other sourdough bakers manage to combine their hobbies? rolleyes.gif

Yes. I try hard to keep the brewing in the shed and the baking in the kitchen. Of course this isn't always that easy as I'm known to have the stir-plate in the kitchen which is probably the worst idea ever.

The wild yeasts in sourdough cultures probably live on me by now and could quite easily infect my brews if they set their minds to it. I am going to continue trying my best with sanitation. Any slip ups that occur will have just need to be considered unique house flavours!

 

[mika]

I'm with Raven, would have thought the Lacto would have taken a lot longer to get thru and really take hold, which is probably why you're still seeing a high FG.
Even if the airlock ran backwards I would have thought it would have to be pretty good bacteria to survive a sanitiser filled airlock, unless the air was sucked thru that quickly it survived.

Either way, I wouldn't be jumping on the Sourdough infected my beer bandwagon wuite so soon.

 

[drsmurto]

Mika - No airlock, i use clingfilm which means there is no barrier to suck back.

Raven - RIS is in a keg in the shed with a stave of oak. Tasted and smelt OK going in to the keg but am a tad scared what is now in there as it was also fermented inside for a week to raise the temps and as usual i took a few readings.

QldKev - orthosphos for sanitising. A few times a year i might give the fermenters a soak in bleach for a few days but they get a very good rinse, drain and dry before being sanitised as per usual.

Both beer used WY1469, the stout used yeast top cropped from the previous stout, the ESB used part of the yeastcake from the same stout. As mentioned, that stout finished at the expected FG and tastes/smells fine.

The stout is showing signs of spots on the surface, the ESB still has a small krausen when i racked it.

 

[raven19]

Sounds like I need to head up to sample then.

That is a darn shame!

 

[Wolfy]

I use the same Erlenmeyer flasks for brewing my ginger beer with GBP (which contains lactic acid bacteria), as I do to make my starters.
Maybe in the future I should use different containers or make sure I wash them much more pedantically than I do now!

 

[Effect]

why don't you use some sort of airlock? I had a run of infections and I now use a blow off tube for my two fermenters. I also recommend that you start using your fridges to ferment in...

Don't really know what the cause for your 'infection' is, but from my experience, I pulled everything apart, soaked it in PBW, boiled everything and then sanitised everything and started fresh with all new yeast. Haven't had an infection since.

Best of luck finding out what it is - and hopefully this is the last batch lost.

 

[felten]

There is probably lacto everywhere, in your mouth, on your hands, flying past your face, and in your bread flour (especially wholemeal variants). http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html is a good read that i stumbled upon recently while searching for the subject.

I make sourdough quite often as well but luckily I haven't accidentally crossed the two hobbies as of yet, but I did pitch a spoonful or so of starter into ~1L of beer left over from bottling my previous batch, it's been sitting in a cupboard for 1.5 weeks doing its thing, smells pretty good actually, haven't tasted/measured it yet though. I occasionally get some great banana esters from my starter (doesn't translate into the bread though unfortunately), I started noticing it after adding a small drop of olive oil to the starter. But usually its the same old vinegar smell, tastes good though, I'm sure it would go well in a sour beer like a flanders or a lambic.

 

[Quintrex]

Lactobacillus is pretty effectively inhibited by alcohol and hops, I sure there is enough post fermentation to have stopped it producing that much sourness .

Which could mean that it's something other than lacto, (potentially brett. or wild yeast)

or maybe it was there from the start...

 

[Nick JD]

or maybe it was there from the start...

... they both used the same yeast. Opening the top to top crop and using the cake after racking in a room with other cultures in it!

 

[Nick JD]

Geeze glad Nick JD posted here,,,,,

:lol: Kev, the infection expert.

 

[drsmurto]

... they both used the same yeast. Opening the top to top crop and using the cake after racking in a room with other cultures in it!

Ah, yes, forgot to mention i top cropped both batches. Twice. So the clingfilm came off for that period.

Massive forehead slap.

Will keep the brewing in the shed from now on and the bread making inside.

I use clingfilm inside as the sound of a blooping airlock isn't ideal for sleeping. No dramas using airlocks in the fridge in the shed.

 

[QldKev]

Ah, yes, forgot to mention i top cropped both batches. Twice. So the clingfilm came off for that period.

Massive forehead slap.

Will keep the brewing in the shed from now on and the bread making inside.

I use clingfilm inside as the sound of a blooping airlock isn't ideal for sleeping. No dramas using airlocks in the fridge in the shed.

Has it developed the traditional lacto surface signs?

QldKev