Lacto Infection (sour, Tart, Vinegar Tasting)

[BjornJ]

Hi all,
back in May I made another AG lager. Pilsner malt, flaked rice and some dextrose hoping for a light-coloured dryish lager. Hallertauer at 60 mins and also a little bit at 0 mins.

Pitched at 8 degrees, slowly ramped it up over almost 2 weeks.
Then racked to cube and the last 3.5 litres in a sanitised jug.
The racked beer got isinglass and polyclar, the beer in the jug did not.
After a week or so of cold storage both were bottled, carbed with carbonation drops.
In a mix of glass longnecks, Coopers PET bottles and some brand new from the factory, never used glass stubbies I bought of ebay with Sammus last year but never used.

After 6 weeks at room temp I put the cases of beer in the fridge set at 2 degrees and went overseas.
It was then lagering for 6 weeks..

So far a happy story, but here we go:

I tried a bottle, it was clear, ok foam but sour?
Brought a couple of bottles to work, the guys had one sip and poured it down the drain. Sour or something.

I brought a bottle to Graham, after our BJCP session the other day I know he has a brilliant palet. And being a food scientist he knows his stuff

He hmm'd and aah'd a bit, Mrs. Eyres helped as well. Some pH measuring and consulting some books, Graham gently broke the news that I had a lacto infection... AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGH.

Thanks for asking, but I won't see this as my first attempt at a Lambic either, hehe.

Coming back home, I grabbed the 2 cases of this beer I had.
All the bottles seem to have spots inside. There are things floating in them, small round bits. On the side of both PET and glass bottles there are small round things stuck to the side of the bottles.
That is;

-both (used) glass longnecks, PET and the brand new glass bottles have the infection
-the bottles marked "B" also have the infection (the ones from the water jug that were never in the cube/isinglass, etc)

So it doesn't sound like it was the bottles, as the brand new ones had it as well.
It doesn't sound like it was the cube, as the "B" bottles had it as well.

Guess that leaves the fermenter?

The fermenter is always washed out with dish washing liquid and rinsed VERY well before I use sanitising spray (iodophor). Never have noticed any infection before..


Graham suggested I use napisan on everything to sterilize, so will do that for sure.

Just really annoyed I got an infection!
Must admit I thought my sanitation was good, and the lager took months to make if you count the lagering.


Just wanted to share the bad news and ask if others had experienced similar things?
Will a good soak in napisan get rid of the ^*&)(&)IRfr.?

thanks
Bjorn

 

[manticle]

As I mentioned in another thread - sanitation and cleaning well will reduce your risk of infection - it won't make you immune. Getting an infection doesn't make you a dirty brewer or a bad brewer.

I had several infections over the recent summer. My sanitation regime went through the roof and the infections kept coming back. What made it difficult to work out was that it seemed as if there were several kinds - one possibly wild yeast infection, one possibly lacto infection and one definite brett infection (realised the cause of that one though). It was depressing throwing out decalitre after decalitre of full mash beer.

Don't know to this day if it was the heat of summer, switching sanitisers and stuffing up the quantities or just a scratch in the fermenter. Could have been all three. Ended up retiring a fermenter which coincided with slightly cooler weather (and got my sanitiser proprtions correct) and I've not been plagued since. Still follow the same slightly overkill sanitation regime but I'm smart enough to know that doesn't make me immune.

Bad luck on that one - I'd buy a new fermenter and bits for the meantime and ferment a kit brew in the old fermenter to see how it comes out. If it's uninfected then you're probably OK.

 

[BjornJ]

As I mentioned in another thread - sanitation and cleaning well will reduce your risk of infection - it won't make you immune. Getting an infection doesn't make you a dirty brewer or a bad brewer.


Bad luck on that one - I'd buy a new fermenter and bits and ferment a kit brew in the old one to see how it comes out. If it's uninfected then you're probably OK.

Manticle,
thanks for the voice of support

And you are probably right, should just ditch the fermenter and buy a new one probably.
Have used it for 1,5 years so maybe time anyway.
But I am planning to brew tomorrow and now Dave's Homebrew is closed. Hmm, maybe I'll put it in a cube or something.

 

[manticle]

Didnt you taste the beer when racking to the cube n jug? If it tasted ok, the ferment was ok etc etc.
To get an infection isnt such a bad thing I have found, I can generally trace it back and improve my brewing thereafter.

This is a good point. Every infection I've had bar one (my first) I knew from visual signs and/or tasting. My first infection made my first AG pilsner taste like bread and grass - literally. I was expecting bready and grassy from saaz hops so I bottled anyway thinking it would settle down. Still have a few bottles left and drink a bit every now and again to remind myself.

It just reiterates how important the process of getting to know your brew is - smelling and tasting each hydrometer sample, making it dinner, going for long walks and occassionally running it a bath with essential oils.

 

[BjornJ]

Didnt you taste the beer when racking to the cube n jug? If it tasted ok, the ferment was ok etc etc.
To get an infection isnt such a bad thing I have found, I can generally trace it back and improve my brewing thereafter.

Haysie,
I tasted the hydrometer samples both when racking and when bottling and I didn't taste anything wrong.

But after being a student at Stuster's BJCP course on Tuesday where the subject matter was doctored beers (he gave us beers with added diacetyl, DMS, etc) I know for a fact I better not quit my day job and hope for a career as a beer judge..

I thought it was the bottles when talking with Graham today, but after checking the brand new bottles after I got home, I no longer believe lacking sterilizing of bottles is the reason.

I also thought maybe it could be the cube I use as secondary, but if it was, the "B" bottles would not be infected.
(the "B" beer was racked into a brand new water jug, the 4 litre type bought at woolworths containing spring water. The jug was sanitised before use)

I guess my "fear" is not getting rid of it.. Do I brew tomorrow hoping I can get rid of it, or take up lawn bowls in stead?


thanks

Bjorn
(edited some spelling errors)

 

[haysie]

Haysie,
I tasted the hydrometer samples both when racking and when bottling and I didn't taste anything wrong.

But after being a student at Stuster's BJCP course on Tuesday where the subject matter was doctored beers (he gave us beers with added diacetyl, DMS, etc) I know for a fact I better not quit my day job and hope for a career as a beer judge..

I thought it was the bottles when talking with Graham today, but after checking the brand new bottles after I got home, I no longer believe lacking sterilizing of bottles is the reason.

I also thought maybe it could be the cube I use as secondary, but if it was, the "B" bottles would not be infected.
(the "B" beer was racked into a brand new water jug, the 4 litre type bought at woolworths containing spring water. The jug was sanitised before use)

I guess my "fear" is not getting rid of it.. Do I brew tomorrow hoping I can get rid of it, or take up lawn bowls in stead?


thanks

Bjorn
(edited some spelling errors)

Well faark it, i lost my post editing it, Leave lawn bowls alone mate, its all the "old school" VB boys :lol: In alll seriousness, I hope you nail it and good luck with it!

 

[manticle]

If you have a cube, use that.

 

[Stuster]

But after being a student at Stuster's BJCP course on Tuesday where the subject matter was doctored beers (he gave us beers with added diacetyl, DMS, etc) I know for a fact I better not quit my day job and hope for a career as a beer judge..

Do I brew tomorrow hoping I can get rid of it, or take up lawn bowls in stead?

Who picked the DMS?

I don't think you should take up lawn bowls (although I hear it's pretty wild stuff). I doubt there are any brewers who've brewed for long who haven't got any contamination in their beers. The good thing is you picked up something was wrong and are doing something to correct it.

I agree with the Eyres's. Napisan on everything. Make sure your whole procedure is not going to be introducing any infection. I think you can still salvage that fermenter, but a second fermenter never hurt. :beer:

 

[BjornJ]

thanks guys, will napisan everything before it gets in contact with the beer and maybe just cube the beer for now.
Maybe I should no-chill for the first time to give me time to get a new fermenter..

Bjorn

 

[redbeard]

I thought napisan was good for cleaning not sanitising ... how about some peroxide, bleach or phosphoric ?

cheers

 

[Banshee]

If you tasted the hydrometer test then I would say it was from your priming drops.

 

[Wolfy]

Will a good soak in napisan get rid of the ^*&)(&)IRfr.?

I'd not consider Napisan as a 'cure all' if you do have an infection, it contains sodium percarbonate which in turn breaks down to hydrogen peroxide.
So while it does have sanitizing properties it's not really a dedicated sanitizer, but it is a good cleaning/soaking agent.

If it was me I'd be soaking everything in Napisan as a first step in the cleaning/sanitizing process.
Then I'd soak everything with an acidified bleach solution, since that should kill pretty much any bugs remaining.
I'd let that air dry without rinsing, and after its been dry a while (days/weeks), (rinse it in hot water if you wish) and thoroughly rinse/soak it all in sanitizing solution, not just spray it but be very liberal, before letting it air dry again.
Then before reusing any of it I'd dose it with a different sanitizer (StarSan if you use Iodophor for example).

A bit of a pedantic procedure I guess, but it's better than losing more batches of your beer to more infections.

Finally if you're worried about your bottles being a potential source/carrier you might consider heat-sanitising them in the oven.

 

[Nick JD]

Bottles are an often overlooked source of infection - especially brown ones.

Those who bottle in clear PET will notice that bottles (especially those not rinsed immediately after pouring) will have a very, very thin layer of dried sediment on the inside that is very hard to get off. It is only just visible through thin, clear plastic. Even scrubbing it's difficult to remove and it's not visible through brown glass - the bottle looks clean. No amount of shaking and hot water or detergent will remove it.

Surface sanitizers will not sanitize a dirty bottle.

Every few brews I fill all my empty bottles with water and a teaspoon of napisan and leave them for a couple of days. They are then clean as a whistle.

 

[manticle]

True but in this case the bottles have been all but eliminated as the likely source since they came from a number of different places and some were completely brand new.

@Banshee: some infections can take a bit of time to show themselves. There were a number of aceto type infections in the 09 VIC case swap - I am assuming that samples were taken prior to bottling.

@Wolfy - very similar to my process developed in response to aforementioned summer infections (although I do boiling water rinse and sod met rinse as much to remove the chlorine as anything else). I still do this to my fermenters and cubes.

 

[Josh]

Have you considered your hoses? If the hydrometer sample didn't taste infected, then your fermenter is probably in the clear.

But if you transferred to the cube and your jug using the same hose, that could be the culprit. Try giving all your equipment a good soak in napisan or caustic. Then give them a good rinse and sanitise as normal.

:icon_offtopic: Lawn bowls is a great sport. Played pennants for Penrith years ago. Once we settle down and find a place to live for a few years, I'll be getting back into it. No reason you can't brew and bowl. Just don't try drinking a schooner every second end. After 21 ends in the sun, it becomes a very difficult sport. I found 2-3 schooners was my sweet spot. Just enough to overcome the nerves without losing my way. Kinda like pool.

 

[BjornJ]

took some pictures with my mobile, sorry for the poor quality.







Not too easy to spot in the first one, but I guess you can see why I freaked out when having a good look through the bottle (picture two).

 

[Brown_hound]

Do I brew tomorrow hoping I can get rid of it, or take up lawn bowls in stead?

Way off topic...

Bowls is hands down awesome.

Contrary to popular belief- has no boundaries in age.. Give it a go!

Being a brewer/excessive drinker I know I'm in a peak of fitness for it! Go Seaforth!! :lol:

Hound

 

[BjornJ]

hehe, lawn bowls is great fun!
We had a lawn bowls session with the IT department before christmas.
Everyone can have a go, no fitness required and it's surprisingly good fun!