Kettle Contents To Cube.

[bum]

Commercial breweries (and non-commercial breweries for a very long time) have excluded hot break as it is known to have negative impact on stored beer.

 

[Endo]

I've always followed the guide I read for BIAB no-chilling and have always dumped it in straight from boiling in to the cube. Helps kill off nasties allegedly.

 

[Parks]

Dont waste brewbrite then. Its to separate that crap from your lovely clear wort, so you can leave it out.

It's not entirely wasted. My brews have dropped crystal clear after fermentation due to BrewBrite so I assume this would still happen.

(it's not just kettle finings)

 

[mckenry]

Cold break and hot break are easy.

Hot break is stuff that forms in your kettle, mostly protiens, that is created in the boil and is insoluable even at boiling temperatures. It forms chunks and falls to the bottom of your kettle. You do a whirlpool or let the wort settle - and you leave that stuff behind.

<snip>

TB

ThirstyBoy is a well respected professional brewer for a mega brewery. There are others, but this was result from my first search.

Who are the professionals you're referring to?

 

[mckenry]

It's not entirely wasted. My brews have dropped crystal clear after fermentation due to BrewBrite so I assume this would still happen.

(it's not just kettle finings)

Yes, but it still remains that excess trub can cause astringency problems. If you're not having this problem, then 'as you were'.
As a side note, there's even more crap to separate, if harvesting yeast slurry.

I still think its wasted as you can get clear beer with vitamin T anyway.

 

[Silver]

It seems no matter how much you research there are 2 camps re hot break into FV. A recent search suggested the HB is simply a by product of the chilling process and not something the commercials are actually seeking to take out of the beer. Googling is still no match for experience IMHO. I wouldn't mind betting close to 100% of the Yay sayers have and do practice and a vast majority of the Nay sayers have not. Having never tried it, I sat on the fence until recently, my last 2 brews HB and all into FV are both pearlers.

 

[Parks]

Yes, but it still remains that excess trub can cause astringency problems. If you're not having this problem, then 'as you were'.
As a side note, there's even more crap to separate, if harvesting yeast slurry.

I still think its wasted as you can get clear beer with vitamin T anyway.

What I said had nothing to do with astringency or the effects of carrying hot break into the fermenter. It was simply stating that the brewbrite should still have a clearing effect on the beer in the fermenter.

I personally keep as much hot break and other rubbish in the kettle as possible as it's considered best practice.

 

[mckenry]

What I said had nothing to do with astringency or the effects of carrying hot break into the fermenter. It was simply stating that the brewbrite should still have a clearing effect on the beer in the fermenter.

I personally keep as much hot break and other rubbish in the kettle as possible as it's considered best practice.

I see now Parks. From the replies to replies, it turns out I thought you were Cosmic Bertie. Just thought it was the same person replying to my response to them.
Confusing hey?

 

[Parks]

I see now Parks. From the replies to replies, it turns out I thought you were Cosmic Bertie. Just thought it was the same person replying to my response to them.
Confusing hey?

Indeed

 

[mckenry]

It seems no matter how much you research there are 2 camps re hot break into FV. A recent search suggested the HB is simply a by product of the chilling process and not something the commercials are actually seeking to take out of the beer. Googling is still no match for experience IMHO. I wouldn't mind betting close to 100% of the Yay sayers have and do practice and a vast majority of the Nay sayers have not. Having never tried it, I sat on the fence until recently, my last 2 brews HB and all into FV are both pearlers.

I agree there is no replacement for experience. If your beers are turning out spectacular, then, as I say, 'As you were'
My personality generally requires me to accept the teachings of the learned. Thats what I learnt, and thats what I do.
Experimenting with variables is my thing, not experimenting with process.

Now I just want to pose some genuine questions. No sarcasm meant.
If all the kettle trub was fine to make it to the fermenter, why are there hop screens, pick-ups bent to the side, bazookas etc?
Why do breweries bother separating if thats another time and cost?
Who decided excess trub (and surely all kettle trub would be considered excess) causes astringancy? Surely they tried before stating.

I didnt google for my answer, I googled for the post I knew I had read, where Thirsty stated leave the hot break out.

 

[Sam England]

I did a side by side experiment on this point to prove it to myself as there seems to be a lot of opinions that have been turned into gospel without practical testing. I don't have my notes here at work, but from memory I made Ross' NS Summer Ale, as much hot break as possible skimmed at start of boil, whirlflocced and chilled to pitching temp. 25L batch, top 15L as control into fermenter 1, 2nd 5L into fermenter 2 and the remaining 5L of trub and wort into fermenter 3. There was about 2L of trub in F3. F2 & F3 were 6L glass jars with airlocks that I normally use for starters. Pitched the same, fermented the same and bottled all the same. Blind tasting with a few homebrewing mates and we couldn't pick the difference between 1 & 2, but 3 was definitely the worst. Still drinkable, but it had an astringency or funny taste that wasn't appreciated. I know this is diluted across a whole 25L normally and wouldn't be as noticeable, but it's convinced me to stick with dumping the trub. My 2c, but each to their own.

Cheers,
BB

 

[Silver]

I did a side by side experiment on this point to prove it to myself as there seems to be a lot of opinions that have been turned into gospel without practical testing. I don't have my notes here at work, but from memory I made Ross' NS Summer Ale, as much hot break as possible skimmed at start of boil, whirlflocced and chilled to pitching temp. 25L batch, top 15L as control into fermenter 1, 2nd 5L into fermenter 2 and the remaining 5L of trub and wort into fermenter 3. There was about 2L of trub in F3. F2 & F3 were 6L glass jars with airlocks that I normally use for starters. Pitched the same, fermented the same and bottled all the same. Blind tasting with a few homebrewing mates and we couldn't pick the difference between 1 & 2, but 3 was definitely the worst. Still drinkable, but it had an astringency or funny taste that wasn't appreciated. I know this is diluted across a whole 25L normally and wouldn't be as noticeable, but it's convinced me to stick with dumping the trub. My 2c, but each to their own.

Cheers,
BB

Thanks for sharing. I am not surprised at your results. Could you clarify one thing though, was the same quantity of yeast given to F2 as F3. F2 5l wort and F3 3l wort if i've understood correctly.

 

[Sam England]

Thanks for sharing. I am not surprised at your results. Could you clarify one thing though, was the same quantity of yeast given to F2 as F3. F2 5l wort and F3 3l wort if i've understood correctly.

US05 in all three, and it was 15L, 5l & 5L. Pitched at reasonable rates with the starter split according to the volumes in the vessels. I put the same amount into both 5L vessels. The 2 L reference was the break material I could see in the glass, but there would have been pretty close to 5L of wort in there as well due to the nature of the trub ie soft, pillowy. I also use bags for my hops which were flowers in this case, to reduce the amount of trub I get.

 

[manticle]

There has been a lot of documented study on break material in finished beer - it isn't just hearsay. Having said that, the last scientific paper I read on it was a little inconclusive. I'll see if I can hunt it up. BigFridge posted it somewehere in a thread last year but I had seen it before. Think it's from the IBD archives*.

However what actual good does all that gunk do for the beer? If you're lucky, you may recover 600 extra mL of wort by using it, depending on your process and equipment. If you whirlpool properly and do as I and a few others obviously do (recover trub in separate vessel, allow to settle, decant clear wort then use for active starter or add back in to the main brew) then your losses should be very minimal. While the negative effects of trub (relating to flavour and shelf life) may not be clear to everyone, does anyone know of any positive effects? It's gunky crap and it's easy to leave behind, so I do.

Cold break gets included as I ferment directly in my NC cube.

*found it - it's a review of various studies on wort turbidity and as I remembered, it's not conclusive. It does give you an idea that it is of interest and that there's a lot more to it than 'I read it on the internet'

http://www.endoc.net/PDF2/0427.pdf

 

[stux]

Now I just want to pose some genuine questions. No sarcasm meant.
If all the kettle trub was fine to make it to the fermenter, why are there hop screens, pick-ups bent to the side, bazookas etc?

Easy. To not block the plate chillers

But seriously though, Hot Break is regarded as bad in a fermenter and Cold Break... meh.

Personally, I suck as much out of my kettle as it takes to fill my cubes... before my siphon stops.

I siphon from the top and I use brewbrite. so generally I leave behind the hotbreak.

The cold break then forms in the cubes... and the hops fall down too.

I try to leave both the cold break and hop matter behind because I *have* done side-by-sides with/without the cube trub... and I prefer it without. Friends of mine prefer it with.

BUT I preferentially take everything EXCEPT the hotbreak... which is on the bottom of the kettle.

 

[mckenry]

Easy. To not block the plate chillers

But seriously though, Hot Break is regarded as bad in a fermenter and Cold Break... meh.

Personally, I suck as much out of my kettle as it takes to fill my cubes... before my siphon stops.

I siphon from the top and I use brewbrite. so generally I leave behind the hotbreak.

The cold break then forms in the cubes... and the hops fall down too.

I try to leave both the cold break and hop matter behind because I *have* done side-by-sides with/without the cube trub... and I prefer it without. Friends of mine prefer it with.

BUT I preferentially take everything EXCEPT the hotbreak... which is on the bottom of the kettle.

Same same Stux. Except I've never done the hot break in fermenter test.

 

[recharge]

Rather than start a new thread, i was wondering if those that were practising throwing everything from kettle into the cube then fermenter are still doing so.
I ask because i have recently started brewing again just done my 5 BIAB in about 3 weeks after a few years away from brewing.
I have been putting the lot into the cube then laying it on its back and slowly angling it upright with the hope of catching the hot break in the back recess of the cube (assuming it is heavier).
If my results wont be any different i am happy to dump the lot into fermenter as well.

Cheers
Rich

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

There has been a lot of documented study on break material in finished beer - it isn't just hearsay. Having said that, the last scientific paper I read on it was a little inconclusive. I'll see if I can hunt it up. BigFridge posted it somewehere in a thread last year but I had seen it before. Think it's from the IBD archives*.

However what actual good does all that gunk do for the beer? If you're lucky, you may recover 600 extra mL of wort by using it, depending on your process and equipment. If you whirlpool properly and do as I and a few others obviously do (recover trub in separate vessel, allow to settle, decant clear wort then use for active starter or add back in to the main brew) then your losses should be very minimal. While the negative effects of trub (relating to flavour and shelf life) may not be clear to everyone, does anyone know of any positive effects? It's gunky crap and it's easy to leave behind, so I do.

Cold break gets included as I ferment directly in my NC cube.

*found it - it's a review of various studies on wort turbidity and as I remembered, it's not conclusive. It does give you an idea that it is of interest and that there's a lot more to it than 'I read it on the internet'

http://www.endoc.net/PDF2/0427.pdf

Wondering if you know of another place that has that link manticle? I'd love to read it.


recharge - I've used Irish Moss and left as much break behind, then collected the wort/trub/hot break in reagent bottles to make starters (I will use PET bottles and freeze as per some advice in this thread). The reagent bottle allowed me to see what the hot break/trub looks like and whilst it does settle out from the wort, the slightly movement of the vessel and it mixes some back up (not all, but say 1/3). So instead of tilting your cube to avoid it when putting from cube to FV, I'd recommend just avoid it in the kettle in the first instance.

 

[recharge]

recharge - I've used Irish Moss and left as much break behind, then collected the wort/trub/hot break in reagent bottles to make starters (I will use PET bottles and freeze as per some advice in this thread). The reagent bottle allowed me to see what the hot break/trub looks like and whilst it does settle out from the wort, the slightly movement of the vessel and it mixes some back up (not all, but say 1/3). So instead of tilting your cube to avoid it when putting from cube to FV, I'd recommend just avoid it in the kettle in the first instance.
[/quote]

I don't tilt as I'm siphoning, i kinda do it over a day or two leaning backwards against the wall then siphon from the front of the cube without moving it.
I havent had a lot of luck seeing much hot break in the kettle using koppafloc, whirlpool and a hop bag so end up dumping the lot in the cube.

Rich

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I haven't used koppafloc, but the break/trub material that's in the bottom of my kettle as I empty is pretty darn easy to distinguish between the wort. Are you emptying out of the ball valve in the kettle or siphoning into the cube?