Kegging Vs Bottling Beer

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Thanks Razz... will that be a "Private Message"

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Actually... it does not matter if its private. I just wanted to put up my phone number as talking to someone is soooo much more efficient and effective as I found out with Grmblz. I will put it up here and if anyone wants to call me with some advice, I will not only be grateful but I will not call you so I do not be a "pest". I called Grmblz a few times and I do not think I should even though he was ever so helpful. Would love to chat with zoigl and Daz when ever they have some free time. My number is 0418 55 666 3. Now if anyone wants to harass me over the phone particularly of a sexual nature...do not bother me UNLESS you are female and cute (even not so cute to be honest). Cheers and Beers. Darren

 

[razz]

Not private, I think it appears at the bottom of the page for all to see.

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Thanks Razz. There was a final question (for tonight) that I am certain will have varying opinions but I am a lover of knowledge and can't help myself; so I will pose the question but must make a clear distinction...I am a "lazy brewer" (and way too new) in that I do not use grains at this stage and just use the tins from the home brew shop. further, I do not brew anything fancy...I just want a bloody good common beer:
1. how long at say 25c do you allow for a brew to ferment
2. following on from Q1 above; lets say the bubbles stop on day 4 and I see no more bubbles (in the air lock) after that
3. When do I bottle/keg the beer after this.
4. Does leaving the beer in the high priced turbo charged $50 Coopers fermenter for a longer period of time a) improve the beer and b) clarify the beer better.

I look forward to the infinite wisdom of fellows from a wiser land than myself.

Cheers and Beers

Darren

 

[DazGore]

Thanks Razz. There was a final question (for tonight) that I am certain will have varying opinions but I am a lover of knowledge and can't help myself; so I will pose the question but must make a clear distinction...I am a "lazy brewer" (and way too new) in that I do not use grains at this stage and just use the tins from the home brew shop. further, I do not brew anything fancy...I just want a bloody good common beer:
1. how long at say 25c do you allow for a brew to ferment
2. following on from Q1 above; lets say the bubbles stop on day 4 and I see no more bubbles (in the air lock) after that
3. When do I bottle/keg the beer after this.
4. Does leaving the beer in the high priced turbo charged $50 Coopers fermenter for a longer period of time a) improve the beer and b) clarify the beer better.

I look forward to the infinite wisdom of fellows from a wiser land than myself.

Cheers and Beers

Darren

Darren, here goes.

1. The beer chooses its own time, you cannot rush it, the same kit may take 4 days one time and 10 the next. There are a few factors, temperature is the main one. I grow my yeast in a starter and oxygenate before pitching and my beers have finished fermenting after 4 days. In your case allow at least a week. If you can get the temperature lower than 25 would help too. Around 18-21 for your kit would be better.
2. A way to see if the beer is done is by using a hydrometer. If the reading is the same a couple of days apart it's done. You should however leave it a few days after this to allow the yeast to clean up after itself. They produce byproducts during fermenting.
3. So timeline now is probably 2 weeks and you can now bottle/keg. I take it you have no means of temperature controlling your beer? If you do, you would cold crash for a day or 2 to clear up the beer and drop impurities out of solution.
4. a) it can do, depending on style
b) yes, the longer it's left the more things settle.

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Hooolly **** Batman.. Thanks for your reply Daz. I thought 25 was the best . I have complete control for at least 9 months of the year as I use aquarium heaters in the fermenter (installed properly). Frankly even for those 3 months when is is warm, I can control it with where I put the ferment in the house. I live in Geelong. Yes I understand about the hydrometer readings but I guess I was wondering what the opinion is on the clarity being improved with say 3 weeks left in the fermenter. Man..thanks for your input. This is what os so important on a forum like this. Cheers and Beers

 

[Dave70]

Kegging. If only for the fact that there a couple of decent restaurants out my way who observe the correct definition of BYO and a man can enjoy a homemade beer with his Massaman curry if he chooses. Chill a few flip tops in the freezer for half an hour ans a slow steady poor from the Pluto gun and your sweet. Weihenstephaner and the like bottles are also great, plus it saves them from recyclers warehouse furnace.
I wouldn't go back to bottling exclusively any more than I'll be swapping my mirror-less camera for a hipsterish 35mm retro film antique, i quite enjoy the ritual and the little 'psst' of cracking a bottle now an then.

Incidentally, I think the fretting over cleaning bottles is more meme than fact. Whats so hard about rinsing a bottle and impaling it on a bottle tree at the end of a session? About as challenging an pissing on the back of ones hand.

 

[DazGore]

70/80g dex/sugar in keg,
Fill keg from bottom avoiding splashing.
Fit lid and apply 30psi (that's what he's using Mark)
Spray lid and poppets with foaming sanitiser looking for leaks, especially the big lid O ring. If leak detected re-seat lid.
Fit spunding valve set at 15psi, this will release some of the 30psi, re-check for gas leaks.
Leave in a warm spot (more than 18c) for 10 days, check every couple of days that the spunding valve is showing 15psi.
Put keg in serving fridge and connect gas at whatever your serving pressure is.
Chill for 3 days, serve.

So which part of this ^ didn't happen? I'm guessing 30psi and checking for leaks, or checking the spunding valve to make sure the keg is holding pressure.
Also this is just a starting point, try setting the spunding valve at 20psi for more carbonation.
For your flat beer, set the reg at 20psi and leave it at that that for a couple of days, will get better with a bit of time, when it's to your liking reset the reg back to 12psi or whatever it is you're using.

Hi, There is a flaw in this method.
Carbonation depends on temperature and pressure.

Using the carbonation charts available online you need to set your spunding valve at the pressure that corresponds to the volumes of carbonation you want, at the temperature you are carbonating. So for your example of an 18 degree carb with spunding set to 15psi, it would only net you 1.82 Volumes, which is way under your target of say 2.5.
All you are doing is effectively losing your co2 into the atmosphere instead of into your beer.
Also, you need to know what temperature your beer is on the immediate second pour from your keggerator, and using the same carbonation chart work out what pressure you need to set your regulator at to achieve the volumes of co2 that you are targeting.

15 psi at 18 degrees is not the same as 15 psi at 4.

I hope this makes sense. You would Spund at around 26 PSI to target 2.49 volumes at 18'c
If your keggerator spits out beer at 5'c you would then need to set your regulator to 12PSI to achieve this (2.49 volumes)
If your keggerator spits out beer at 10'c you would set the regulator to 17PSI for the same 2.5 volumes

So to summarise, you need to know the temperature of your beer, and the temperature of your carbonating environment. Those that force carb in the keggerator this is the same, those natural carbonating in the keg at room temperature need to know room temperature. Use the chart and dial in the pressures accordingly.

Daz

 

[Grmblz]

Hi, There is a flaw in this method.
First off, Darren is brand new, and struggling with basic procedures, he just needs a simple starting point that he can then tweak as he progresses'

Carbonation depends on temperature and pressure.
Errr, yes I know, but that's not what is being discussed.

Using the carbonation charts available online you need to set your spunding valve at the pressure that corresponds to the volumes of carbonation you want, at the temperature you are carbonating. So for your example of an 18 degree carb with spunding set to 15psi, it would only net you 1.82 Volumes, which is way under your target of say 2.5.
Who said the target was 2.5, where is the target of 2.5 mentioned?
Commercial carbonation levels are usually style dependant, although as brewers we have the luxury of carbonating our beer to suit our own preference, unless you're entering comp's of course.

All you are doing is effectively losing your co2 into the atmosphere instead of into your beer.
We are not talking about force carbonating, we are talking about simple keg conditioning, and if you don't lose some CO2 to the atmosphere you will end up with over carbed beer, now it's true that you can work out exactly how much sugar to add to reach a particular level of carbonation, in which case you wouldn't need a spunding valve, but this is all about keeping it super simple, so add a bit too much sugar and spund off the excess gas, then having the gas connected whilst you chill for 3 days keeps the carbonation level the same (ish) whilst the beer chills. If it's a bit flat (imho that's better than over carbed) then for the next brew set the valve 5 psi higher, and so on until you get to where you want to be.

Also, you need to know what temperature your beer is on the immediate second pour from your keggerator, and using the same carbonation chart work out what pressure you need to set your regulator at to achieve the volumes of co2 that you are targeting.
The temperature of the beer is going to be the same as the air temp of your fridge (eventually) provided you have a fan, and if you don't have a fan then you should.

15 psi at 18 degrees is not the same as 15 psi at 4.
Errr, yes it is, 15psi is 15psi even on the dark side of the moon, if you are referring to carbonation levels at 15psi then absolutely it becomes temperature dependant.

I hope this makes sense. You would Spund at around 26 PSI to target 2.49 volumes at 18'c
If your keggerator spits out beer at 5'c you would then need to set your regulator to 12PSI to achieve this (2.49 volumes)
If your keggerator spits out beer at 10'c you would set the regulator to 17PSI for the same 2.5 volumes
It makes perfect sense to me but a rank novice might struggle with it, and maybe I've missed something here but where does this 2.5/2.49 volumes come from?

So to summarise, you need to know the temperature of your beer, and the temperature of your carbonating environment. Those that force carb in the keggerator this is the same, those natural carbonating in the keg at room temperature need to know room temperature. Use the chart and dial in the pressures accordingly.
Agreed but Darren is really struggling with kegging BASICS, this was all about just giving him a simple starting point over the phone that he can understand, and then tweak without having his head implode (no offence DD)
It's easy to get into the complexities of the beer making process with tables, charts, spread sheets, water additions, ph adjustments etc, and some folk have no trouble with it, but others prefer a KISS approach, unfortunately it's all too easy for well meaning advice from more advanced brewers to discourage a novice, it all just gets "too hard" and they give up.
Cheers G


Daz

 

[DazGore]

All I am saying is that if Darren naturally carbed in the keg, like you advised, and had his spunding valve at 15 psi, depending on his room temperature he is only making a 1.8 volume beer. So of course his beer is going to be flat. If he set his spunding valve to the target for the temperature he is carbing at, he would have a beer that is close to finished, not one that is only 3/4 of the way there.
The point of spunding is to capture the CO2 produced from fermenting and utilising it, not to waste it into the atmosphere.
You gave great advice, but Temperature is important, and worth learning from the start, novice or not.
There is less ******* around to just dial in target temps, volumes etc from the start, instead of chasing your tail.

 

[Grmblz]

Thank you, fwiw I tend to brew best bitters and dark ales (porters, stouts) and carbonate to my palate, I'm also a huge fan of "real ale" I'm a pom, what can I say. It's been a long time since I looked at a chart (I don't enter comp's, maybe I should) anyway out of curiosity, and doubting my advice to Darren, with your "2.5" in mind, I did a quick Google and came up with this
Carbonation Levels For Different Beer Styles - Home Brew Answers
As can be seen the range is 0.8 to 3.1, now 0.8 is pretty bloody flat even by my real ale standards, but what interested/concerned me is 2.0 to 2.5 seems to be a ball park average for the vast majority of the styles, so I'm definitely a bit on the light side, and your 2.5 seems to be where the money is, it's strokes for folks of course, and I'm not about to start pumping out 2.5 best bitters but I think I may need to revise my advice to others, especially in this case as Darren has professed a preference for FIZZY! beer.
Thanks for the input

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Kegging. If only for the fact that there a couple of decent restaurants out my way who observe the correct definition of BYO and a man can enjoy a homemade beer with his Massaman curry if he chooses. Chill a few flip tops in the freezer for half an hour ans a slow steady poor from the Pluto gun and your sweet. Weihenstephaner and the like bottles are also great, plus it saves them from recyclers warehouse furnace.
I wouldn't go back to bottling exclusively any more than I'll be swapping my mirror-less camera for a hipsterish 35mm retro film antique, i quite enjoy the ritual and the little 'psst' of cracking a bottle now an then.

Incidentally, I think the fretting over cleaning bottles is more meme than fact. Whats so hard about rinsing a bottle and impaling it on a bottle tree at the end of a session? About as challenging an pissing on the back of ones hand.

Ha ha . Thanks Dave. Clearly you are an 'ol photographer. So was I. In terms of bottling beer, I agree it is not hard to rinse bottles but I gotta say...I drink a **** load and anything that is easier gives me more time to...lets just say...participate in my Hobby With Benefits. Cheers and Beers Dave

 

[DarrenTheDrunk]

Thank you, fwiw I tend to brew best bitters and dark ales (porters, stouts) and carbonate to my palate, I'm also a huge fan of "real ale" I'm a pom, what can I say. It's been a long time since I looked at a chart (I don't enter comp's, maybe I should) anyway out of curiosity, and doubting my advice to Darren, with your "2.5" in mind, I did a quick Google and came up with this
Carbonation Levels For Different Beer Styles - Home Brew Answers
As can be seen the range is 0.8 to 3.1, now 0.8 is pretty bloody flat even by my real ale standards, but what interested/concerned me is 2.0 to 2.5 seems to be a ball park average for the vast majority of the styles, so I'm definitely a bit on the light side, and your 2.5 seems to be where the money is, it's strokes for folks of course, and I'm not about to start pumping out 2.5 best bitters but I think I may need to revise my advice to others, especially in this case as Darren has professed a preference for FIZZY! beer.
Thanks for the input

Hey mate. You dont need to change any of your advice. I guess this is what this somewhat technical hobby is all about...its the depth and magnitude of everyone's experience that make this such an interesting topic. Personally, I do not think or accept anyone is comparing the size of each others "appendages". This is the benefit of the collective knowledge. What is the saying (my version)...The collective wisdom of many is far more relevant than the accumulation of individuals...I did say this is "my version" cos I am too pissed to remember to true version !!!! I love this new hobby...,and so does my liver specialist !! cheers and beers

 

[DazGore]

Thank you, fwiw I tend to brew best bitters and dark ales (porters, stouts) and carbonate to my palate, I'm also a huge fan of "real ale" I'm a pom, what can I say. It's been a long time since I looked at a chart (I don't enter comp's, maybe I should) anyway out of curiosity, and doubting my advice to Darren, with your "2.5" in mind, I did a quick Google and came up with this
Carbonation Levels For Different Beer Styles - Home Brew Answers
As can be seen the range is 0.8 to 3.1, now 0.8 is pretty bloody flat even by my real ale standards, but what interested/concerned me is 2.0 to 2.5 seems to be a ball park average for the vast majority of the styles, so I'm definitely a bit on the light side, and your 2.5 seems to be where the money is, it's strokes for folks of course, and I'm not about to start pumping out 2.5 best bitters but I think I may need to revise my advice to others, especially in this case as Darren has professed a preference for FIZZY! beer.
Thanks for the input

Thank you,

When we brew beer, we brew it for ourselves, yes, we like to share it with friends, but ultimately it is for ourselves
A stout according to the book, is carbonated to roughly 2 volumes, for some that seems flat
If you like your stouts fizzy and highly carbonated, go for it. Brew for you and your tastes, not others.
You are the one drinking the majority of it.

This is a hobby, and it should be enjoyable. You can get caught up in all the technical ********, or just wing it. As long as you like the end result that's all that matters.

Cheers

 

[MHB]

All that Psi and Volumes **** is rotting your brains

Say you ferment a beer at 20oC, by the time its finished and ready to package (from Carbonation Tables at Zero Gauge pressure) it will contain about 1.7g/L of dissolved CO2.
You want yellow fizzy beer so around 4.75g/L, clearly you need to add 4.75-1.7=3.05g/L. Ok lets call it 3g/L
Sugar (as is in white) produces ~47% CO2 by weight (well 46.8% really)
Say the keg is 19.6L, 19.6L * 3g/L = 58.8g CO2 are required
58.8g = Mass Sugar/0.468 = 125.6g

No spunding valve, blow off... required. Just sugar and beer into the keg, close the hatch puff of gas to make sure its all closed up then wait.
Mark

 

[Grmblz]

^ Just did the sums, looks like my 70g at 20c is on the money for my ales and porter's, thanks for the reminder though, I'll refer to it the next time I want something yellow and fizzy.

 

[RRising]

Hi, There is a flaw in this method.
Carbonation depends on temperature and pressure.

Using the carbonation charts available online you need to set your spunding valve at the pressure that corresponds to the volumes of carbonation you want, at the temperature you are carbonating. So for your example of an 18 degree carb with spunding set to 15psi, it would only net you 1.82 Volumes, which is way under your target of say 2.5.
All you are doing is effectively losing your co2 into the atmosphere instead of into your beer.
Also, you need to know what temperature your beer is on the immediate second pour from your keggerator, and using the same carbonation chart work out what pressure you need to set your regulator at to achieve the volumes of co2 that you are targeting.

15 psi at 18 degrees is not the same as 15 psi at 4.

I hope this makes sense. You would Spund at around 26 PSI to target 2.49 volumes at 18'c
If your keggerator spits out beer at 5'c you would then need to set your regulator to 12PSI to achieve this (2.49 volumes)
If your keggerator spits out beer at 10'c you would set the regulator to 17PSI for the same 2.5 volumes

So to summarise, you need to know the temperature of your beer, and the temperature of your carbonating environment. Those that force carb in the keggerator this is the same, those natural carbonating in the keg at room temperature need to know room temperature. Use the chart and dial in the pressures accordingly.

Daz

I sort of understand that graph but the only thing i don't understand is how long it takes to get it to a certain carbonation level.

Say i want my XPA clone i have just brewed, i want it to 2.55 (i like my beers fizzy) units at 2°C, how long would that take to get that point?

 

[MHB]

That's a really complicated question.
The rate is determined by a bunch of variables, the main ones being: -
Surface area to volume - The CO2 has to go in through the liquid gas interface, if there is a lot of beer to carbonate and a small surface for the gas to go through it will take longer.
The Differential - The bigger the difference between the over pressure and the equilibrium point the faster gas transfers. Means it takes about the about the same time to get the first half of the target into solution, as it takes to get to the next half (1/4), again and again (1/8) so the closer to the target the slower the transfer.

That's why shaking the keg, using a carbonation stone (both are increasing the surface area) and upping the pressure (increasing the differential) speed up the process. Also why both can result in over carbonation. Especially if you do both at once.

From personal experience a few days at serving pressure get you close a week and its there.
Mark

 

[DazGore]

@Grmblz do you find you get much sediment when naturally carbonating in a keg?
Is it just a case of the first couple of pints being cloudy and the rest is ok?

 

[Dave70]

All that Psi and Volumes **** is rotting your brains

Say you ferment a beer at 20oC, by the time its finished and ready to package (from Carbonation Tables at Zero Gauge pressure) it will contain about 1.7g/L of dissolved CO2.
You want yellow fizzy beer so around 4.75g/L, clearly you need to add 4.75-1.7=3.05g/L. Ok lets call it 3g/L
Sugar (as is in white) produces ~47% CO2 by weight (well 46.8% really)
Say the keg is 19.6L, 19.6L * 3g/L = 58.8g CO2 are required
58.8g = Mass Sugar/0.468 = 125.6g

No spunding valve, blow off... required. Just sugar and beer into the keg, close the hatch puff of gas to make sure its all closed up then wait.
Mark

Super duper.
Can this process be made slightly more 'vigorous' with higher temps? Say we're using the ubiquitous US05 that can tolerate up to 25 deg. Anything to be gained / lost by holding our keg at say, 23 deg while it carbs up?