K&kiab

[rotten]

I need to know I can master K&K before going in head first into AG.

Don't ya mean K&KIAB?

 

[manticle]

Where do you live mate?

If you're struggling to comprehend the written word (some people don't learn well that way) then seeing someone do it and explain on the way can help cement the ideas.

Put your location in your profile and see if there's a brewer nearby who's happy for you to watch and asl questions or even a brewclub in your area.

 

[kelbygreen]

Its been said plenty of times but I am guessing your local home brew shop does not sell grain why you are confused. Kits and extract (dry and liquid malt as well as dextrose or the brew enhancer bags) are just dissolved in hot water. Boiling them will not make a difference and boiling the can (kit) which is pre hopped is not a good thing to do. You can boil the none hopped extract (dry or liquid form)

Now what your confusing is BIAB or AG (all grain) all grain we use no powdered extract. you seen whole barley or wheat kernels before? thats whats used it gets milled and then put into water to maintain a temp of 63-70deg depending on the style and fermentablities you want. Then the grain is removed and washed and discarded the liquid is then boiled to sanitise and also there is no bitterness or hop flavour. Then you add hops to bitter and flavour the now WORT! Now there is nothing add into this thats in a bag or tin, unless you need to add dextrose but that to the style you will brew and 99% the time you can control that with mash temps.

You need to post your location as you seem like your totally confused at what the difference is. Some one on this forum will be happy to show you how to make AG beer and let you watch them do it. I think its the best way to learn as I myself done. After the day you can see and relate to whats been done and talked about.

 

[stevemc32]

Hey Steve, I'm only new to BIAB as well and it took me a few reads to get my head around the process but I've done couple now and it looks to be working. Here's were it seems you're having some trouble.

Think about your kit brew first. You take a can of goop, add it to some water, chuck in your kilo of enhancer and you've got 23 litres of sweet sugary stuff ready to add yeast and seal up. Take a snapshot right here and call this "Point A".

Now lets have a look at the Brew in a Bag method. You buy some cracked grains, some hops, a big pan and a bag. You fill your big pan with water, heat it up to about 70 degrees, throw in your bag and then fill the bag with your cracked grains. This then sits in the pan for 60 to 90 minutes while the hot water removes the sugar from the grains. Once the 60 - 90 minutes is up, you pull the bag and grains from the pot and you're left with a pan full of sweet sugary stuff, but you're only half way there.

To add the bitterness and aroma that we love this sugar water is now brought to the boil and hops are added at various times throughout the boiling process which normally lasts for about an hour. Hops added at the start of the boil generally do the bittering, hops added later are for flavour and aroma. Once the boiling is finished you cover the pot and stick it on the concrete floor to cool it down. When it's cooled you throw it into your fermenter and you're ready to add the yeast. You've now reached the very same "Point A" (with hopefully some better quality sweet sugary stuff) that you had achieved with the kit brew.

The point here is that all the BIAB work has already been done on that kit can of goop that you used to make up the first brew. Someone else has done it for you, concentrated it and stuck it in a can, so there's no longer any need for a bag or grains or hops or boiling. Those things are only necessary if you don't want to use the can.

I hope this is helpful. For those in the know, it's supposed to be a very light, general overview from one beginner to another so please be gentle.

edit - typing at the same time as kelby, so looks like I've repeated a bunch of stuff.

 

[petesbrew]

Do you realise the Bag is basically just an oversized teabag for holding grain? And if you pour the kit in it it'll just go straight through?
Read up in the articles about improving knk beers, steeping grains & using hops. Grab recipes, give em a go, and just keep on trying.
I did have a chuckle reading this, but hey, we all start somewhere.

Might I just add, I've got an AG beer on the go here that tastes like arse. I'm about ready to tip the rest of it. Yep, I've made better Knk than THAT one.
Lots of fun AGing, and there's lots of room for error too.

 

[bum]

There's too much stuff to read and not enough how to threads like NickJD's.

Nick's thread is particularly user-friendly and very, very light on with the technical stuff. If you're not quite grasping it yet just do a few more kit brews (then kit & bits brews) until you feel like you've learned as much as you can there then look into AG again and it will probably all click into place.

I just want to make some good beer and thought the BIAB method was the cheapest easiest way to do it.

Yeah, that's probably a pretty good assessment but the word "easiest" is kinda tricky. It isn't really a sneaky back-door into AG brewing where you don't need to understand the fundamentals (as much as some people want to try to gloss over them). The gear and process can be simpler with BIAB (but even that depends who you ask) but you still need to know what you're doing and why (you can get away without understanding the why on a chemical level for as long as you like though, IMO, but it might stop your great beers from progressing to excellent beers - I'd settle for great beers any day of the week).

seeing someone do it and explain on the way can help cement the ideas.

^this - or maybe someone who knows of any good youtube BIAB vids might like to put up some links.

 

[thelockupgarage]

Now I'll put my hand up and say that I am in no way an expert in home brewing with only 2 months and about 10 brews under my belt but I might just jump in here.

I watched for a number of years my neighbour homebrew, and all he did was get a coopers kit and follow the instructions on the pack - kit, sugar, and water in the fermenter, and pitch the yeast. To be honest, I had no enthusiasm to home brew from that experience. What did get me into it was going to the Bitter and Twisted festival in Maitland last year. My brother and I sat with the Hunter United Brewers all day, and we watched Mark from Mark's Home Brew (Newcastle) do an all grain. At the time much of it went over my head but my brother threw himself into all grain brews.

As for myself, I made a tentative step into it, and this is where I might be able to help you Steve.
This is my process.

Cooper's Pale Ale kit
Brew Enhancer 2
150g Crystal Grain
12g hops
Coopers yeast

Now before anyone jumps at me and says that the coopers yeast is rubbish, my aim was simply to see what would be produced, and to get the experience.

In a 10 litre pot, bring about 5 litres of water to 70 degrees and turn off the heat.
Tie the grain up loosely in a bag made of swiss voile and add to the water. This will bring the temp back to the required 68 degrees.
Put the lid on the pot and cover with as many blankets and towels as possible and leave for 60 minutes.
Take the grain bag out and sit in a strainer over a bowl. When the grain bag is cool enough, give it a good squeeze and add the liquid in the bowl to the pot.
Bring the pot with the grain flavoured liquid to a 30 minutes boil.
Near the end of the boil, add the BE2 and stir through
Add the liquid from the pot to the fermenter, and add water to about 10 litres.
Pour in Coopers kit and stir through.
Fill to 20 litres, put fermenter lid on and airlock, and sit on the verandah until cool enough to pitch the yeast.
When cool enough, put hops in tea cup, add some boiling water and cover with glad wrap for 10 minutes.
Pour hops and water from tea cup into fermenter and stir like a bugger to get as much aeration into it.
Pitch yeast.

I have done this process a number of times using Citra, Amarillo, Fuggles, Nelson Sauvin, Cascade and Pride of Ringwood hops, just to see what the hops add. From my experience, this is a nice step towards all grain, and with a 40 litre urn turning up tomorrow, that time will be upon me very soon.

The addition of grain and hops adds very little to the cost of the beer. I simply bought a kilo of crystal grain ($5), and 50 grams of each of the hops (about $5 each). What it adds to the taste of the beer is what's important, and I have been pleased with the results. No where near all grain quality but miles ahead of just the kit and sugar. My neighbour, the kit and sugar neighbour came over to taste my first beer, took one taste, and told me he was giving up homebrewing and that he would just come over to my place and drink mine.

 

[gadjitsteve]

Hey Steve, I'm only new to BIAB as well and it took me a few reads to get my head around the process but I've done couple now and it looks to be working. Here's were it seems you're having some trouble.

Think about your kit brew first. You take a can of goop, add it to some water, chuck in your kilo of enhancer and you've got 23 litres of sweet sugary stuff ready to add yeast and seal up. Take a snapshot right here and call this "Point A".

Now lets have a look at the Brew in a Bag method. You buy some cracked grains, some hops, a big pan and a bag. You fill your big pan with water, heat it up to about 70 degrees, throw in your bag and then fill the bag with your cracked grains. This then sits in the pan for 60 to 90 minutes while the hot water removes the sugar from the grains. Once the 60 - 90 minutes is up, you pull the bag and grains from the pot and you're left with a pan full of sweet sugary stuff, but you're only half way there.

To add the bitterness and aroma that we love this sugar water is now brought to the boil and hops are added at various times throughout the boiling process which normally lasts for about an hour. Hops added at the start of the boil generally do the bittering, hops added later are for flavour and aroma. Once the boiling is finished you cover the pot and stick it on the concrete floor to cool it down. When it's cooled you throw it into your fermenter and you're ready to add the yeast. You've now reached the very same "Point A" (with hopefully some better quality sweet sugary stuff) that you had achieved with the kit brew.

The point here is that all the BIAB work has already been done on that kit can of goop that you used to make up the first brew. Someone else has done it for you, concentrated it and stuck it in a can, so there's no longer any need for a bag or grains or hops or boiling. Those things are only necessary if you don't want to use the can.

I hope this is helpful. For those in the know, it's supposed to be a very light, general overview from one beginner to another so please be gentle.

edit - typing at the same time as kelby, so looks like I've repeated a bunch of stuff.

Cool so I'm in Adelaide and added that to my profile.

Anyone from Adelaide that can help will be good. I'm always keen to learn.

Thanks SteveMC32, you've cleared a fair bit up. The coopers cans are premade wort like what you would make in an AG BIAB brew?

I've dont the Coopers tour and the old fella doing the tour gave me some tips, said he had been brewing for over 20 years and mentioned using a bag, which was what he has done for a while now and it made some of his best beers.

I'm only a few pages onto the links you guys have posted. I think I've read the NickJD one so many times my heads gonn explode :lol:

Thanks Steve

 

[bignath]

Hey Steve, I'm only new to BIAB as well and it took me a few reads to get my head around the process but I've done couple now and it looks to be working. Here's were it seems you're having some trouble.

Think about your kit brew first. You take a can of goop, add it to some water, chuck in your kilo of enhancer and you've got 23 litres of sweet sugary stuff ready to add yeast and seal up. Take a snapshot right here and call this "Point A".

Now lets have a look at the Brew in a Bag method. You buy some cracked grains, some hops, a big pan and a bag. You fill your big pan with water, heat it up to about 70 degrees, throw in your bag and then fill the bag with your cracked grains. This then sits in the pan for 60 to 90 minutes while the hot water removes the sugar from the grains. Once the 60 - 90 minutes is up, you pull the bag and grains from the pot and you're left with a pan full of sweet sugary stuff, but you're only half way there.

To add the bitterness and aroma that we love this sugar water is now brought to the boil and hops are added at various times throughout the boiling process which normally lasts for about an hour. Hops added at the start of the boil generally do the bittering, hops added later are for flavour and aroma. Once the boiling is finished you cover the pot and stick it on the concrete floor to cool it down. When it's cooled you throw it into your fermenter and you're ready to add the yeast. You've now reached the very same "Point A" (with hopefully some better quality sweet sugary stuff) that you had achieved with the kit brew.

The point here is that all the BIAB work has already been done on that kit can of goop that you used to make up the first brew. Someone else has done it for you, concentrated it and stuck it in a can, so there's no longer any need for a bag or grains or hops or boiling. Those things are only necessary if you don't want to use the can.

I hope this is helpful. For those in the know, it's supposed to be a very light, general overview from one beginner to another so please be gentle.


edit - typing at the same time as kelby, so looks like I've repeated a bunch of stuff.

Not that im some kind of posting nazi, but this post here is an excellent one.

Even more so as its come from someone who has just recently made the same or similar transition to what you are trying to do.

Explains it all pretty much.

 

[gadjitsteve]

Now I'll put my hand up and say that I am in no way an expert in home brewing with only 2 months and about 10 brews under my belt but I might just jump in here.

I watched for a number of years my neighbour homebrew, and all he did was get a coopers kit and follow the instructions on the pack - kit, sugar, and water in the fermenter, and pitch the yeast. To be honest, I had no enthusiasm to home brew from that experience. What did get me into it was going to the Bitter and Twisted festival in Maitland last year. My brother and I sat with the Hunter United Brewers all day, and we watched Mark from Mark's Home Brew (Newcastle) do an all grain. At the time much of it went over my head but my brother threw himself into all grain brews.

As for myself, I made a tentative step into it, and this is where I might be able to help you Steve.
This is my process.

Cooper's Pale Ale kit
Brew Enhancer 2
150g Crystal Grain
12g hops
Coopers yeast

Now before anyone jumps at me and says that the coopers yeast is rubbish, my aim was simply to see what would be produced, and to get the experience.

In a 10 litre pot, bring about 5 litres of water to 70 degrees and turn off the heat.
Tie the grain up loosely in a bag made of swiss voile and add to the water. This will bring the temp back to the required 68 degrees.
Put the lid on the pot and cover with as many blankets and towels as possible and leave for 60 minutes.
Take the grain bag out and sit in a strainer over a bowl. When the grain bag is cool enough, give it a good squeeze and add the liquid in the bowl to the pot.
Bring the pot with the grain flavoured liquid to a 30 minutes boil.
Near the end of the boil, add the BE2 and stir through
Add the liquid from the pot to the fermenter, and add water to about 10 litres.
Pour in Coopers kit and stir through.
Fill to 20 litres, put fermenter lid on and airlock, and sit on the verandah until cool enough to pitch the yeast.
When cool enough, put hops in tea cup, add some boiling water and cover with glad wrap for 10 minutes.
Pour hops and water from tea cup into fermenter and stir like a bugger to get as much aeration into it.
Pitch yeast.

I have done this process a number of times using Citra, Amarillo, Fuggles, Nelson Sauvin, Cascade and Pride of Ringwood hops, just to see what the hops add. From my experience, this is a nice step towards all grain, and with a 40 litre urn turning up tomorrow, that time will be upon me very soon.

The addition of grain and hops adds very little to the cost of the beer. I simply bought a kilo of crystal grain ($5), and 50 grams of each of the hops (about $5 each). What it adds to the taste of the beer is what's important, and I have been pleased with the results. No where near all grain quality but miles ahead of just the kit and sugar. My neighbour, the kit and sugar neighbour came over to taste my first beer, took one taste, and told me he was giving up homebrewing and that he would just come over to my place and drink mine.

Wow cool lockupgarage, wish I had one of those

Anyway. Ill try something like this and leave the bag for the pros. Do all the guys who make good AG beer use the BIAB methond or most use a 3V set up? It seems that 3V is best but I like my esky and don't want to cut it up.

Do I have too use an airlock, I keep reading about kittens or some **** from posts about a year or two back and I don't get it.

Why would someone harm a kitten, couldn't they just give it away or something. If that Butters guy killed a kitten then he needs help cos I love cats and as much as I find this beer thing confusing killing a kitten it just wrong.

Is that why he got banned?

 

[gadjitsteve]

Agreed Big Nath. Put alot of things right in my head. Although it hurts now, and my fingers.....Iv'e never typed so much in my life. Cheers Steve

 

[bignath]

Wow cool lockupgarage, wish I had on of those

Anyway. Ill try somthing like this and leave the bag for the pros. Do all the guys who make good AG beer use the BIAB methond or most use a 3V set up? It seems that 3V is best but I like my esky and don't want to cut it up.

Do I have too use an airlock, I keep reading about kittens or some **** from posts about a year or two back and I don't get it.

Why would someone harm a kitten, couldn't they just give it away or something. If that Butters guy killed a kitten then he needs help cos I love cats and as much as I find this beer thing confusing killing a kitten it just wrong.

Is that why he got banned?

Two things.....

1. Dont worry about the kitten.
Its a joke that was thrown around a long time ago, and its getting really tired. I didnt think it was funny the first time, but others keep laughing at it. No kitten was harmed.

2. Re: best method??
Impossible to say. Depends on your criteria as to how you define the parameters for 'best'.

Im a 3v brewer who is starting to lean towards biab. Only due to time constraints, and ease of setup and pack down.

Beers are comparable, but a 3v rig sure looks pretty sexy. Still, i value my spare time, and no one really notices my brewery anyway, so now im doing the biab thing........with a little, little bit of bling....

 

[manticle]

Forget the kitten thing (look up internet meme then do your best to forget they exist as there's no point to them).

Hope your posts are genuine.

If they are, learn about fermentation, then look at extract and steeping grains, then look at mashing. In the mean time read about beer - even if you don't get it first time, re-read, try something out you read and watch someone else do it. It all adds up.

 

[rotten]

Kittens get stuck in my airlock all the time, it'a ******* problem I tell ya, a bit like bluewaffle. Butters saw the light and tried to enlighten us all but got banned in the process. Beer somebody was nearly killed by such a kitten in his early brewing days IIRC.

Good Luck

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Hope your posts are genuine.

Nope

 

[thelockupgarage]

Hey Steve, you need to look at it this way... where are the flavours, sugars and bitterness coming from?

With my method, the flavours are from the kit and hops, and some from the grain, the bitterness is from the kit, and the sugar is from the BE2. With BIAB/All Grain, the flavours and sugars come from the grains and hops (added late in the boil), and the bitterness from the hops (added early in the boil).

Look at my small swiss voile bag of grain as a small version of the grain bag you would use for BIAB. I used only 150g, but with an all grain BIAB it can be 5 kilos of a mixture of grains. Apart from this, and the size of the pot, the simplest BIAB method is much like my current method.

Simple BIAB (exact details from a recipe)

In a dirty big pot, put heaps of water
Bring the water to required temp for the grain. Turn off heat
Put grain bag in and mix, and cover with blankets for required time
Remove grain and drain as much liquid from it back into the pot
Bring pot to boil
Add bittering hops at say 60 minutes before the end of the boil, bittering/flavour hops at 30 minutes, flavour hops at 20 - 0 minutes, aroma hops at 0 and directly to the fermenter.
Pour liquid into fermentor or cube/container and allow to cool.
Pitch yeast when cooled.

Now this is a very simplistic view of BIAB, but as you can see, it is not much different to my method except for the size of the pot and boil, and the amount of grain. There is no need for BE2 as all the sugars come from the grain, and you are now playing around with hops to get your bitterness and extra flavours and aromas into the brew.

 

[gadjitsteve]

Two things.....

1. Dont worry about the kitten.
Its a joke that was thrown around a long time ago, and its getting really tired. I didnt think it was funny the first time, but others keep laughing at it. No kitten was harmed.

2. Re: best method??
Impossible to say. Depends on your criteria as to how you define the parameters for 'best'.

Im a 3v brewer who is starting to lean towards biab. Only due to time constraints, and ease of setup and pack down.

Beers are comparable, but a 3v rig sure looks pretty sexy. Still, i value my spare time, and no one really notices my brewery anyway, so now im doing the biab thing........with a little, little bit of bling....

Cool, so sounds like alot of people are taking on this BIAB thing. I've been reading stuff on here for over a year now and BIAB seems to be best for me anyway.

Forget the kitten thing (look up internet meme then do your best to forget they exist as there's no point to them).

Hope your posts are genuine.

If they are, learn about fermentation, then look at extract and steeping grains, then look at mashing. In the mean time read about beer - even if you don't get it first time, re-read, try something out you read and watch someone else do it. It all adds up.

Cool, memes are ok. People email them to me all the time but onlt some get forwarded. As for my posts, very genuine. I've also read bits of the 'how to brew' book and think its a bit too much for me just yet.

Kittens get stuck in my airlock all the time, it'a ******* problem I tell ya, a bit like bluewaffle. Butters saw the light and tried to enlighten us all but got banned in the process. Beer somebody was nearly killed by such a kitten in his early brewing days IIRC.

Good Luck

Haha, yeah from what I've read kittens get mentioned alot. I don't even use and airlock as I find the glad wrap method much easier and I can see the beer ferment.

As for bluewaffle thats a meme I'd rather forget. Someone sent that link to me in an email a few years back and its haunted me ever since.

Thanks for all your help tonight guys. Ill give the kit in a bag a miss and try the method lockupgarage posted.

 

[manticle]

Mike Klitorus (username on here) is local to you I think and knows about airlocks and such. Shoot him a PM - beneath the gruff exterior is a very helpful and genuine bloke who can help you out.

 

[Jay Cee]

Do I have too use an airlock, I keep reading about kittens or some **** from posts about a year or two back and I don't get it.

Why would someone harm a kitten, couldn't they just give it away or something. If that Butters guy killed a kitten then he needs help cos I love cats and as much as I find this beer thing confusing killing a kitten it just wrong.

Is that why he got banned?

This guy has been trolling the board with this whole thread from the start. Kits in a bag, now kitten references.

Way to waste everyone's time, mate.

 

[pk.sax]

Yasmani has much pishab yet?

 

[glenwal]

Kits in a bag, now kitten references.

And...

- Boiling Grain

- Using Old Tins

- Spending $30 on a single batch



yet the thread remained pretty much on topic for 3 pages.

 

[kymba]

similar troll to that dipstick last week with the red font?

 

[craigo]

Yasmani has much pishab yet?

x2 i think so

 

[Mike L'Itorus]

Yasmani has much pishab yet?

? :unsure: ?

In the immortal words of Pauline, 'Please explain?'...

Honestly. I don't get the reference.

 

[Cocko]

Greatest thread of all time

 

[Mike L'Itorus]

Greatest thread of all time

Holy ****! What did I just read??? FFS!?!

ach i does not want to be making some sisterfuking indian brewings, yaar. my tastes is for usa style.

I don't know if I want to laugh or cry. Mary, mother of God, Whore of Satan!...

:blink: :lol:

got a bit stale by the 3rd page...a bit like Nick, really.

 

[manticle]

Mike Klitorus

Mike L'itorus with humblest of apologies to him for stuffing it up.

 

[gadjitsteve]

This guy has been trolling the board with this whole thread from the start. Kits in a bag, now kitten references.

Way to waste everyone's time, mate.

And...

- Boiling Grain

- Using Old Tins

- Spending $30 on a single batch


similar troll to that dipstick last week with the red font?

If I'm wasting people time because I thought that by using a bag I'd somehow make these leftover kits of mine taste better then why did one guy message me and guys like Steve32 and lockupgarage help me out?

Do I have to do something more to get some clear help?
They put in in a logical order and explained the differences to me.

I've been reading this forum for over a year now and have read everything from Kittens, to that Yasami thing which is obvious BS, Kegging, about nasa/spiral burners and how much heat they put out. Good links to deals on ebay etc, some that I've used as well.

It was the DMS boiling thread that had me thinking that boiling my kits would make a better beer.

I pretty much boil them anyway, as I put the kit and the LDM into the fermenter and then add boiling water and mix it around. I just don't boil it for an hour like most of you guys do.

Thats what I thought the key was, was to boil it for a full hour, maybe ill add some hops if it doesn't make it over bitter with the hops that are already in the kits.

Also I've since read over the Nick thread and a few others and now realise I stuffed up about boiling grains to do an AG beer. Obvoiusly its steep at 65-70 degrees then boil it to remove DMS while adding hops to add flavour.

So if my coopers kits have all that in the can already then why do people add extra grains and hops etc. Wouldn't that stuff the beer making it to sugary from the extra gain or to bitter from the extra hops?

As for spending $30 on making a beer thats a bit of money for me. Me and the mrs are about to have kids and I can't go out spending heaps on 3V breweries like the one listed in Adelaide in the marketplace section.

I can buy beer for $30 on sale, it wont be very good but the mrs wont bite my head off over it. I need to make beer thats is good if not better than what I'm making now and any trick I can use that I've picked up from this place I'll give it a go.

When I finally ask a question or two on here I get told I'm a troll and that I havent got it right in my head yet.

I'm feeling like I need to stop, read through all this again and try again from scratch.

It's that or I don't ask questions, don't get any help and don't make better beer.

I'm quite happy with the beer I've been making just that I've read about how good some of the beers on here are and want to do this for myself, just without spending $1500 on a brewery I don't even know how to use.

Thanks Steve

 

[Jay Cee]

Sure "steve". Go meet with mike l'torus on brewday if you are genuine.

you could talk about botulism. And airlocks.

 

[gadjitsteve]

Sure "steve". Go meet with mike l'torus on brewday if you are genuine.

you could talk about botulism. And airlocks.

I don't know what botulism is but I did message him. Thanks for caring......

I'm outa here, boss its about to kill me.