Islamic State

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manticle said:
I'd like nothing better than more of the kind of open, critical discussion you get from people like Dawkins and less of the pig-ignorant stupidity you get from people like Stephanie Rice. Unfortunately the first is less common.
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You get critical discussion from Dawkins, not much 'openness' though :p The God delusion was a good read, but his bias is a bit too blinding. Fundamentalist, both of the atheist and theist variety are starting to look very similar. Both will claim to possess absolute knowledge and truth, with little interest or knowledge of the complexity of truth. Both are aggressive and abrasive at best. And both seem to have forgotten the purpose of dialogue. Religions /cults of any kind, aren't going to be reformed from outside sledging and attacks, surely the middle east has taught us that much!
What do people think of Atheism 2.0?
http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0?language=en
 
Not just criminal but organised paedophilia. Hard to begin to say how wrong that is Ian.
 
jimi said:
You get critical discussion from Dawkins, not much 'openness' though :p The God delusion was a good read, but his bias is a bit too blinding. Fundamentalist, both of the atheist and theist variety are starting to look very similar. Both will claim to possess absolute knowledge and truth, with little interest or knowledge of the complexity of truth. Both are aggressive and abrasive at best. And both seem to have forgotten the purpose of dialogue. Religions /cults of any kind, aren't going to be reformed from outside sledging and attacks, surely the middle east has taught us that much!
What do people think of Atheism 2.0?
http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0?language=en
Click to expand...
This is true and the main issue I've had with Dawkins from the get go, despite sharing his lack of belief.
However I mentioned him because his discourse involves research and knowledge, distinguishing critique from bigotry based on ignorance.
His attitude can appear arrogant but at least he knows what he is attacking, unlike the other example I gave.
 
People can incorporate ritual and spirituality into their life without believing in supernature or deities. Drawing, brewing, cooking and music making all have such aspects for me for example.
Not sure I need anyone's blessing or ideas on how to go about it but not having actually read Botton, I can't state outright that that's his schtick - just the impression I'm currently getting.
 
Botton's been around in the UK for a while. Gets wheeled out for intellectual debates on obscure TV shows on late at night. Blathers on a lot on odd notions such as happiness is linked to the architectural quality of the buildings that surround us. The sort of bloke who really would start every sentence at a party with 'well actually...'
 
Well I have my protective head gear

colander+pictures+fox+5.jpg
 
Blind Dog said:
You're seriously trying to equate criminal gangs in the UK who are of Pakistani origin with Muslims? So all white criminal gangs you equate with Christians?
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"unfortunately " I know that area, I know the no go areas, I've sat on a jury.


Asian is being used as a euphemism. And other Asians do not like it. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18092605

Sorry. Can of worms, said too much, my apologies.
 
But you're still quite happy with your assertion that the rape and prostitution of underage girls is a 'hobby' for moderate Muslims?
 
Yeah, Ian I think you're so far behind that you think you're first on this one. This case you refer to is awful, but I don't see how it even infers that pedophile crime gangs are endemic to Muslim culture. Even if it did, or they were, it bares no relevance to the topic, which is Islamic State. It just makes you appear Xenophobic.
 
jimi said:
You get critical discussion from Dawkins, not much 'openness' though :p The God delusion was a good read, but his bias is a bit too blinding. Fundamentalist, both of the atheist and theist variety are starting to look very similar. Both will claim to possess absolute knowledge and truth, with little interest or knowledge of the complexity of truth. Both are aggressive and abrasive at best. And both seem to have forgotten the purpose of dialogue. Religions /cults of any kind, aren't going to be reformed from outside sledging and attacks, surely the middle east has taught us that much!
What do people think of Atheism 2.0?
http://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0?language=en
Click to expand...
Not so.

Dawkins for example, for all his brilliance, isn't the most articulate orator and frequently seems to be getting outpointed by some crafty theist with the gift of the gab. Because he cant deliver biological science and evolution like a Hillsong car salesman counts for little in reality. It's a tough sell when one side is promising immortality or virgins. No anti-theist who respects data, evidence, reason and truth would lay claim to 'absolute knowledge', that claim is demonstrably the purview or theists or idiots. Equally, no respected atheist commentator or critic of religion anchors their argument to ad hominem, they don't need to.

What has the middle east taught us? I personally take away that a mix of tribalism and dogmatic theism seems to produce the most unhappiness for all concerned. Ironic that. You'd think society's who enjoy an exclusive covenant with god would be bliss filled utopias, instead they seem to be rubble strewn slaughter houses.

Also 'What people think' is irrelevant. It's entirely possible for the consensus to be mistaken.
**** you Galileo, the sun orbits the earth..
 
Just to pick at this scab further, while its fair to say the more radical elements of islam are not representative of the faith as a whole, I cannot think of a single example, individual or group, who has be excommunicated by islamic leaders. Not even the likes of murderous thugs Boko Haram or that big mouthed benefit scrounging embarrassment Anjem Choudary. You would imagine an organisation with such a public image problem would be bending over backwards to sever all ties with these generators of bad publicity.

At least the catholic church had the decency to excommunicate nazis. OK, only Joseph Goebbles. And not for war crimes. For having the audacity to marry a protestant.
 
Look up Takfir. You can indeed be excommunicated for not following islamic law. Tends to be enforced by extremist groups to justify punishing apostasy, but could equally be applied to 'un islamic' activity.
A mufti can issue a fatwa, no central hierarchy required.
 
Dave70 said:
A mufti can issue a fatwa, no central hierarchy required.
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And indeed such fatwas have been issued - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

But because there is no central hierarchy, they tend to get ignored by those outside the issuing group.

Oh yeah... and because they aren't considered as newsworthy as beheadings they get ignored by non muslims as well who then go on to complain that moderate muslims aren't issuing fatwas against radicals. But if you go looking it doesn't take much effort to find them - http://bit.ly/1vL1mQH
 
Dave70 said:
Just to pick at this scab further, while its fair to say the more radical elements of islam are not representative of the faith as a whole, I cannot think of a single example, individual or group, who has be excommunicated by islamic leaders.
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I don't think you're picking at a scab, rather asking a reasonable question. But the reality is that it would be like asking the Anglican Church to excommunicate one of the more extreme baptist churches in the US. Islam is not a single homogenous whole. As with any religion there have been schisms, reform and counter reform movements such that it is splintered into a myriad of conflicting theologies.
 
manticle said:
People can incorporate ritual and spirituality into their life without believing in supernature or deities. Drawing, brewing, cooking and music making all have such aspects for me for example.
Not sure I need anyone's blessing or ideas on how to go about it but not having actually read Botton, I can't state outright that that's his schtick - just the impression I'm currently getting.
Click to expand...
I don't understand spirituality and its non link to the supernatural.

Can you point me to the part of spirituality that manifests in reality?
 

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