Islamic State

[philmud]

First I'm going to preface this by saying that I hope it won't generate general anti-Islamic commentary. I hope we can all acknowledge that the stated beliefs & actions of Islamic State fighters are not representative of a whole religion, but an extremist (mis)interpretation. I'd prefer this discussion to be about them & the situation in Syria & Northern Iraq specifically.

I'm interested in what people's thoughts are. I was staunchly opposed to the war in Iraq early last decade, though as time went on I was not in favour of immediate withdrawal (you make a mess, you help clan it up).

IS scare me though, and I think boots on the ground will become necessary. On the flip-side though, boots on the ground may be the kind if antagonism that has sustained the emergence of IS. Experts are suggesting this thing will span generations - that's some scary shit!

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

And the Christians have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church

Religion...the root of all evil...and war..

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I am only speaking for myself but I cant see this thread ever being a light hearted discussion and think this and other threads down this line should be moved to off topic forum and not be posted on the front page of a brewing forum.
We seem to be discussing more social issues than brewing these days .
My 2c
Nev

 

[i-a-n]

I am only speaking for myself but I cant see this thread ever being a light hearted discussion and think this and other threads down this line should be moved to off topic forum and not be posted on the front page of a brewing forum.
We seem to be discussing more social issues than brewing these days .
My 2c
Nev

I'm with Nev.
As a Pastafarian Minister the only one of my religious beliefs I try to force down the throats of the willing is 'drink more beer'. Otherwise to other religious tenets I'd say 'I rather you didnt'

 

[manticle]

Any racism or generalised bigotry won't be welcome. Should be adult enough to discuss topics like this without reverting to that, hopefully.

 

[philmud]

I am only speaking for myself but I cant see this thread ever being a light hearted discussion and think this and other threads down this line should be moved to off topic forum and not be posted on the front page of a brewing forum.
We seem to be discussing more social issues than brewing these days .
My 2c
Nev

Nev, it's in the "In the News" section. This is in the news. If mods want to move it, I'm fine with that, but I can't see any reason this can't be discussed. As with anything, members are free not to discuss.

Edit: I may have misunderstood. Do "off topic" threads not come up on the timeline feed? If so, I agree - should be brewing/beer related topics only on the front page.

 

[philmud]

Topic title should read 'Islamist State'.

The group refer to themselves as Islamic State, formerly Islamic State of Iraq & Syria. Perhaps "Islamist" might better capture that they're not representative of most Muslims.

 

[manticle]

Yeah kind of what I was getting at. I edited that out anyway as you are correct and either term is open to misinterpretation.
Also it seems to have been moved so I edited the rest as my comments were totally redundant.

 

[motch02]

Interesting overview

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMjXbuj7BPI[/media]

 

[Feldon]

Here's a map of the situation on the ground in Iraq (from late June).

And another of Syria that is current (note that many of the "Syrian Rebels" marked are IS forces, particularly in the Golan).

 

[Tahoose]

It is worrying but inevitably I think we will have troops on the ground again in Iraq.

Lets hope this time they are actually allowed to do something, but the formation of task force black is a good start.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sas-special-forces-forming-hunter-4097083

Is this a good time to bring up that it was the 'Kevin 07' election promise that saw us pull out of Iraq early in the first place.

Good work Kev.

 

[Toper]

I'm with Nev.
As a Pastafarian Minister the only one of my religious beliefs I try to force down the throats of the willing is 'drink more beer'. Otherwise to other religious tenets I'd say 'I rather you didnt'

As a fellow Pastafarian,I think you've forgotten about the bacon...never forget the bacon

 

[i-a-n]

The group refer to themselves as Islamic State, formerly Islamic State of Iraq & Syria. Perhaps "Islamist" might better capture that they're not representative of most Muslims.

Interesting video here....
http://ozziesaffa.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/i-bet-she-regrets-asking-her-question.html?m=1

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Islam has a lot of similarities to Christianity..

Being Islamic does not make you a terrorist, in the same way that being Catholic does not make you a pedophile...

There are extremists in all religions.

Ireland is a perfect example.

But being a Pastafarian does make you really cool, what with beer volcanoes, strippers and all... :chug:

 

[Donske]

Islam has a lot of similarities to Christianity..

Being Islamic does not make you a terrorist, in the same way that being Catholic does not make you a pedophile...

There are extremists in all religions.

Ireland is a perfect example.

I really wish people would remember this, there are arseholes in every group, so many people in the western world assume that all Muslims are extremists, it really doesn't make sense that otherwise reasonable people come to that fallacious conclusion does my head in.

To be bigoted against individuals because they share some same of the beliefs as cold blooded murderers (let's call them what they are) is beyond baffling.

I like to point out to other atheists that some of worst atrocities ever committed were by communist regimes that were staunchly anti religion.

 

[Phoney]

Is this a good time to bring up that it was the 'Kevin 07' election promise that saw us pull out of Iraq early in the first place.

Good work Kev.

What, you think keeping the few thousand Aussie troops there would have made any difference? Australia's presence was nothing more than a token effort, kept away from the hotspots in the far south of the country. Which is why Australia had no casualties there (besides one soldier who killed himself). You could argue that the US withdrawal may have had some effect on the spread of IS through Northern Iraq, but there's too many other factors at play to even pin it down on that.

Essentially the US, and it's few allies created the monumental fuckup of the century by going into Iraq and having no effective plan for post-Saddam Iraq. As Peter Hartcher noted yesterday:

Australia is now deeply immersed in discussions with the US over the next shared mission in Iraq. The last one was a profound misjudgment. George W. Bush was aided and abetted by his British and Australian allies in invading a stable country and leaving it an unstable one. Indeed, Iraq became one of the biggest sources of instability in the world.
The invasion unseated Saddam Hussein, who operated a brutal regime but a stable country. It enthroned Nouri Al-Maliki, who operated a brutal regime and a deeply unstable country. It was American-occupied Iraq that incubated the movement now known as ISIS or Islamic State. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi formed Al Qaeda in Iraq, which became Islamic State. The group moved into Syria.
Maliki spent years conducting a low-intensity civil war against the country's Sunnis. So when Sunni-based Islamic State fighters swept back from Syria into Iraq, the Sunnis in Iraq's army were not about to fight them. The Sunnis in the ranks quietly walked away. Four divisions in Iraq's army simply collapsed.
Islamic State took over.
The US under Obama and Australia under Abbott now confront the task of trying to cauterise the flow of bloodlust and bloodshed bequeathed them by their predecessors. They need to emphasise politics over kinetics and a regional solution rather than an Anglophone invasion.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/tony-abbott-cannot-escape-joe-hockeys-budget-20140829-10a4nt.html#ixzz3BxxChi8w

 

[Tahoose]

What, you think keeping the few thousand Aussie troops there would have made any difference? Australia's presence was nothing more than a token effort, kept away from the hotspots in the far south of the country. Which is why Australia had no casualties there (besides one soldier who killed himself). You could argue that the US withdrawal may have had some effect on the spread of IS through Northern Iraq, but there's too many other factors at play to even pin it down on that.

Not necessarily, but if we take our 3,000 and then the yanks shift 100,000 into Afghanistan, and the Brits withdraw their 15,000 all in succession. Then it certainly creates more instability in the country. I'm just plucking those numbers out of nowhere but I'm sure you get my drift.

We did have casualties though, but not fatality's..

 

[manticle]

Could be well argued that foreign involvement throughout history has created a good portion of that instability.

 

[philmud]

That's the conundrum for me. I think the 2003 invasion created the conditions for much of Iraq's instability & lead to horrendous sectarian violence. Is the answer to walk away, or does the West need to take responsibility by remaining involved.
It's a moot point in some respects because Australia has announced involvement by way of delivering weapons to Kurdish fighters. I doubt IS see this as less antagonistic as more direct involvement.

 

[Dave70]

IS see their role as ushering in a new calaphae, albeit somewhat self appointed, in accordance with Surah Al-Nur, Verse 5.(among others) Its a proud tradition within islam. IS are simply doing what all religions have engaged in throughout history. They're taking the words of their relevant texts seriously. In this case, the koran.
Supposing that western intervention and misadventures in the middle east are the root of the reigns woes and instability basically ignore muslim history dating from the 7th century and Muhammads conquest of the Arabian Peninsula.
The rot and schisms that have brought nothing but war and misery to the region were set in motion a millennia before we hit the scene.

An 'islamic state', that is, a sovereign state under sharia, is as wrongheaded and ludicrous as calling for a 'Jewish state', as in, Israel run strictly in accordance with Halakha, or the pope demanding Vatican city a "Catholic state'.

Indecently, criticizing islam in no more racists or bigoted than criticizing any religion, or indeed a someones self imposed dietary habits. Its a belief system, not a ******* race. I somehow doubt if the Muhammad was of northern European extraction and the call to prayer was recited in Icelandic we'd feel the need to constantly couch the conversation racists disclaimers.