Islamic State

[philmud]

No, you're correct, we wouldn't. Australian society has a bias towards any kind of predominantly white cultural phenomenon. Pointing out that Islam isn't an ethnicity is glib. Most Muslims belong to ethnicities that are routinely subject to racism. As you point out, if Muslims were white, there'd be no disclaimers. That's because a great deal of the criticism leveled at Islam has racist overtones.

Edit: that said, I agree. Islam shouldn't be off limits for criticism for fear of being labelled racist.

 

[Dave70]

No, you're correct, we wouldn't. Australian society has a bias towards any kind of predominantly white cultural phenomenon. Pointing out that Islam isn't an ethnicity is glib. Most Muslims belong to ethnicities that are routinely subject to racism. As you point out, if Muslims were white, there'd be no disclaimers. That's because a great deal of the criticism leveled at Islam has racist overtones.

Edit: that said, I agree. Islam shouldn't be off limits for criticism for fear of being labelled racist.

You may have a point in reference to north African, in specific, Nigerian muslims, but the majority are Indonesian, Indian or Pakistani. 'Arab', and lets face it, thats the elephant in the room, states account for less than 20% of the worlds muslims. Devout muslims always recite (pray) from the koran in Arabic, regardless or their mother tongue. Them's the rules. Until we can get over this islam = Arab non sequedor, the conversation will remain stifled.

 

[manticle]

Bigotry comes in forms other than racism though Dave. I believe any and all religions should be open to informed critique but much of what is bandied about is scaremongering based on ignorance. Nothing to do with race although as PI points out, xenophobic overtones are pretty widespread.

I'd like nothing better than more of the kind of open, critical discussion you get from people like Dawkins and less of the pig-ignorant stupidity you get from people like Stephanie Rice. Unfortunately the first is less common.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Unfortunately there is nothing we can do as westerners as abhorrent and disgusting as we may find it the situation has to be overcome by the Muslims. We can be going backwards and forwards to Iraq until the cows come home and never resolve a single issue.

 

[Dave70]

I agree we need to choose our words carefully, but this shit cuts both ways.
You needn't dig to deep to find most religions are interchangeably a culture, a race, a business (charity) ect depending on what level they've chosen to be offended on or which tax exemption / grant they're applying for.
Sound cynical? I've got a few customers who are Exclusive Brethren. In their case at least, no dummies when it comes to working the system. Good payers to I might ad.

Unfortunately, no rational argument exists where one side ignores rational argument and reverts inevitably to special pleading.

 

[philmud]

You may have a point in reference to north African, in specific, Nigerian muslims, but the majority are Indonesian, Indian or Pakistani. 'Arab', and lets face it, thats the elephant in the room, states account for less than 20% of the worlds muslims. Devout muslims always recite (pray) from the koran in Arabic, regardless or their mother tongue. Them's the rules. Until we can get over this islam = Arab non sequedor, the conversation will remain stifled.

You don't think Indonesians/Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs are subject to routine racism?

 

[Dave70]

You don't think Indonesians/Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs are subject to routine racism?

Sure they do. Just like women suffer routine sexism, homosexuals suffer routine homophobia and Jews suffer routine antisemitism. It can be an ugly world at times.
My point was more to do with the fact that people identify a particular race, in particular, middle eastern appearance, with islam, as if being born Arabic is to be born 'islamic', when the facts are they actually account for only a small minority of the worlds muslims.

 

[manticle]

And a large portion of the Middle Eastern/Arab world adhere to other creeds.

 

[Dave70]

Oddly, when I think of Buddhists, Richard Gere springs to mind ahead of the Dali Lama.
But never Tiger Woods.

 

[pcmfisher]

What does the average run of the mill non-extremist Muslim think about the murderous extremists?

I would have thought they may be outraged. But no.

You know, the kind of outrage shown when a satirical cartoon of Muhammad appears in a newspaper.

 

[philmud]

What does the average run of the mill non-extremist Muslim think about the murderous extremists?

I would have thought they may be outraged. But no.

You know, the kind of outrage shown when a satirical cartoon of Muhammad appears in a newspaper.

How do you know they're not outraged? Because the MSM doesn't cover it?

 

[pk.sax]

I have a problem with their spread, conquer and convert philosophy. Their perceived superiority. It ranks up ahead of Christian missionaries trying to convert the world.

Thankfully, today's missionary is mostly meek and doesn't bring an AK47 to the argument.

Proof is in the pudding they say. There are hundreds and thousands of extremist groups belonging to every religion possible. Yet, those societies pull them in and moderate them. Not so with the Jihadi states, most of the crap going on today emanates from extremists in Islamic States that are encouraged and congratulated while the moderates in those societies pay lip service to protest. Truthfully, Islam looks to me like the Borgs from Star Trek, they assimilate or kill.

Discuss...

 

[manticle]

Proof of the pudding is in the eating. There is no proof in the pudding itself.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Lets not forget the those good folk from various Christian faiths who's duty it was to convert those lesser societies....

 

[philmud]

Absolutely Stu, Christians colonized a huge proportion of the world. This almost always involved some degree of cultural erasure & in many instances, genocide. The ball is round and the game is long and we're only watching a very small part of it.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Absolutely Stu, Christians colonized a huge proportion of the world. This almost always involved some degree of cultural erasure & in many instances, genocide. The ball is round and the game is long and we're only watching a very small part of it.

And lets also not forget the way that the Church was tied in with Governments of the day.

I give you Rabbit Proof Fence as a classic example

 

[Blind Dog]

Not trying to trivialize what going on in Iraq and Syria, but as I understand it the fundamental difference between Sunni Muslims and Shia stems from the death of Mohammed and who was his rightful air. 1400 years later and the major target of IS and other Wahhabi extremists appears to be Shia Muslims. And the main target of Shia extremists appears to be Sunni Muslims.

I just don't get the concept of 'you believe something different from me therefore I have the right to kill you'. Any ideology that demands adherence without question is a ripe breeding ground for that level of hatred, whether it happens or not. Religions of whatever hue just seem to be more prevalent and easier to identify, but the same seemingly unquestioning allegiance to the motherland seems to be fueling the violence in the Ukraine, and the Balkans conflicts of recent memory seemed to turn on people's ethnicity rather than anything else. Massacres in Rwanda, the genocide of the aborigines, slavery all stem from that same unthinking, unfeeling belief that somehow what I'm doing is right and sanctioned by god (or substitute). The list of our hatred of our fellow humans, our violence and bloodshed is almost endless. IS and it's ilk are another manifestation. I fear they won't be the last.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Maybe its got to do with some one just not liking those that live next door...

 

[manticle]

Well some seventh day adventists believe the Pope is the beast666. Islam and judaism (and christianity) are very closely linked in terms of early origin and development yet they love slandering and slaughtering each other.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Well, you can have that.....I have beer volcanoes & strippers in my religion