Is chill in fermenter really that bad ?

[mongey]

so this weekend I am doing my first full ,all grain , BIAB after doing a bunch of partial mash's with extract . time to do the real thing . with my partials I have used cool tap water to top up and drop to temp close to pitching ,then let it sit in the fermenter in the fridge for a few hours . but seems that doing the full 23l boil with biab is best . so I need to cool the wort all the way

I was planning to siphon to my sanitized fermenter and put that in my chilled brewing fridge overnight to drop to pitching temp but on googling it seems many are opposed to this idea .I don't have an option to put my 50l pot in the sink to cool to wort, small sinks , and buying a cube just to let it cool seems a waste when I just want to ferment the bad boy.

is it really that bad of an idea to do in the fermenter ?

If I do need to cube is just a standard 25l water one from bunnings ok for hot wort ?

https://www.bunnings.com.au/icon-plastics-25l-blue-tint-water-storage-drum-with-bung_p3240532


thanks

 

[malt and barley blues]

Plenty of people chill in either kettle or fermenter overnight, I did the chill in fermenter for years without any problems.

 

[mongey]

Plenty of people chill in either kettle or fermenter overnight, I did the chill in fermenter for years without any problems.

thanks

 

[Leyther]

I chill in the fermentor fridge all the time, its not always easy to get down to pitching temp without doing so, I brewed on the weekend but only managed to get down to 28C so I put into the fermentor and let it chill down to 18 before I pitch.

 

[Rocker1986]

I do a variation of this with my yeast starters, leaving the flask sitting on the stove to cool to room temp before pitching them (obviously covered with foil).

I think it would be fine if you put hot wort into it and let sit overnight then pitched yeast first thing the next morning, but if you are leaving it any longer then it's best to fill a cube completely and seal it up. I always use cubes as my pitching yeast days rarely, if ever line up with the day after a brew day. I just put them in the brew fridge for a few hours before pitching to chill the wort down closer to ferment temp if required. I wouldn't be as confident leaving cooled wort sitting around in a fermenter for hours before pitching it though, it's a perfect environment for nasties to start growing. Better off just pitching it even if it is a bit warmer than you'd like.

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

I sometimes leave mine in the boil kettle with the lid on for 24 hrs while it cools the last bit to pitching temp because I like to splash it about to oxygenate it in the fermenter and I want the yeast to be straight onto that oxygen so the wort isn't oxidized.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

is it really that bad of an idea to do in the fermenter ?

I say yes it is. Its offering plenty of opportunity for countless unwanted microorganisms to get a growing start in your wort before the yeast is introduced. The real test would be side by side tests of the same brew done with good practice compared to the beer that's been done were it will probably, maybe be ok, maybe, take your chances etc.
I did it once in the past in a plastic fermenter, the beer was ****. I did it in a stainless steel kegmenter and I could taste a flavor that should not have been there. Simply its just the air in the headspace will carry plenty of unwanted microorganisms that will thrive in your sweet wort. Do the maths of bacterial growth. One microorganism turns into 2, into 4, into 8, into 16, into 32 etc etc. After hours that turns into millions, even billions since it will start with a lot more than one to begging with. You need to find better practice if you really care about making good beer.

 

[Leyther]

is it really that bad of an idea to do in the fermenter ?

I say yes it is. Its offering plenty of opportunity for countless unwanted microorganisms to get a growing start in your wort before the yeast is introduced. The real test would be side by side tests of the same brew done with good practice compared to the beer that's been done were it will probably, maybe be ok, maybe, take your chances etc.
I did it once in the past in a plastic fermenter, the beer was ****. I did it in a stainless steel kegmenter and I could taste a flavor that should not have been there. Simply its just the air in the headspace will carry plenty of unwanted microorganisms that will thrive in your sweet wort. Do the maths of bacterial growth. One microorganism turns into 2, into 4, into 8, into 16, into 32 etc etc. After hours that turns into millions, even billions since it will start with a lot more than one to begging with. You need to find better practice if you really care about making good beer.

I don't think anyone would disagree with what your saying its just not always practical hence sometimes its the only option available, I would love to get my wort down to pitch temp but even after chilling my fermentor before putting the wort in its still higher than where I would want it i.e. between 25 and 35C which is higher than the ferment temp I want, how do you get yours down that last 10C?

Also raises another Q on this subject, is it better to chill your wort to ferment temp i.e. 20C and then pitch or is it better to pitch immediately at a higher temp i.e. 35C and let it cool down to ferment temp? would this perhaps cause some thermal shock to the yeast or would the cooling be gradual enough that this is not an issue?

With yeast lag time those nasties in the air are always going to be present in some form.

 

[malt and barley blues]

You don't have to go to far back when wort was put into the fermenter to cool and a tea towel or pillow case was the cover for the fermeter. There was no other choice, never heard of anyone getting infections overnight.

 

[soreba]

My personal preference would be just to get a chiller.. For the price of 3 cubes from bunnings... https://www.kegland.com.au/wort-heat-exchanger-counterflow-chiller.html
Throw it in the fridge to pull it down the rest of the way and pitch an hour or two later..Your then done and dusted for the day.

 

[Bonenose]

I have a couple dozen bottles of frozen water in the freezer and an old esky with magnetic drive pump screwded into the drain. Once you have dropped temp af far as you can, I normally swap at 35-40, recirc ice water through your chiller. Can also use plastic fermenter I think the tap is 1/2 inch have used them before.

 

[Leyther]

My personal preference would be just to get a chiller.. For the price of 3 cubes from bunnings... https://www.kegland.com.au/wort-heat-exchanger-counterflow-chiller.html
Throw it in the fridge to pull it down the rest of the way and pitch an hour or two later..Your then done and dusted for the day.

I have an immersion chiller but that's only good for about 27C in winter and 35C in summer even in Melbourne and that's after > 30mins, my garden loves it, my water bill not so

Maybe need to look at an alternative chiller.

 

[mongey]

I have an immersion chiller but that's only good for about 27C in winter and 35C in summer even in Melbourne and that's after > 30mins, my garden loves it, my water bill not so

Maybe need to look at an alternative chiller.

yeah I looked at an immersion chiller but in these drought times I cant justify it just on the wasting water factor

 

[Bonenose]

Fair point on the water, could possibly collect it and use later but probably easier going no chill.

 

[eviltabouleh]

Has anyone used the kegland chiller, For $55 i might make the jump. it's cheaper than trying to make my own even thought I have a stainless coil handy
I have a 1000L spa close by but I don't want to want an hour for it do drop to 23 C
I have NoChilled for years

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have chilled overnight in the kettle a number of times without any adverse effect but I did recently go to buy some sodium perborate and I asked if they were willing to sell me some cubes, no problem, 20 litre extra heavy duty $7.00. 25 litre extra heavy duty $9.00. Can't grumble at that. Saved me going all the way over to Sunshine west to get them at around the same price.

 

[eviltabouleh]

I have chilled overnight in the kettle a number of times without any adverse effect but I did recently go to buy some sodium perborate and I asked if they were willing to sell me some cubes, no problem, 20 litre extra heavy duty $7.00. 25 litre extra heavy duty $9.00. Can't grumble at that. Saved me going all the way over to Sunshine west to get them at around the same price.

I get cubes on sale at Supercheap, no where as good as that but

 

[Danscraftbeer]

how do you get yours down that last 10C?
.

I use an immersion chiller that pumps my rain water tank until it gets low enough for Ale temps easy enough. In colder months the tank water gets as low as 9c so that's good enough to get the wort down to Lager ferment temps. In hotter months it gets down to ~22c so I then connect the tap water that's colder again for the last temp drop that gets me to 18c.

Also raises another Q on this subject, is it better to chill your wort to ferment temp i.e. 20C and then pitch or is it better to pitch immediately at a higher temp i.e. 35C and let it cool down to ferment temp? would this perhaps cause some thermal shock to the yeast or would the cooling be gradual enough that this is not an issue?

With yeast lag time those nasties in the air are always going to be present in some form.

I think its fairly forgiving. Although i think its far better to pitch your yeast at ~30c while cooling down to correct temp then not to pitch the yeast at all. They use the word inoculation with the yeast for it to be the dominant organism growing. Not much else gets much of a chance against a good pitch rate of your chosen yeast. but the yeast should definitely be the first organism introduced to your wort. That is a key point IMO.
Ideally i prefer to start the brew ferment at the lowest of the yeast temp range and end the ferment at the highest of the temp range but! Dry yeasts actually recommend re hydrating at warmer temps like 30c. Danstar does etc. So for the home brewer I think that could be the better way to go to pitch your dry yeast at the higher temp. As long as the yeast has equalized to the temp of your wort. Yeast dont like sudden temp changes it can shock them but the idea to pitch your yeast at 30c while the brew is cooling down to say 18c is the best choice in this scenario.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

You don't have to go to far back when wort was put into the fermenter to cool and a tea towel or pillow case was the cover for the fermeter. There was no other choice, never heard of anyone getting infections overnight.

I'm sorry but I laughed out loud at this comment. Check out the Infections Photo Thread. https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/infection-photo-thread.51830/page-52

Like 58 pages, 1034 posts long. This is with brewers using better practices than a towel over the top and letting it cool overnight etc. The infection happens in the first hours. It wont show its nastiness until days maybe weeks later. These infections shown are the end results but they happen a fair bit etc. Maybe a week or two at least after the fact that it got infected in the first stage of the new wort. The first hours in the danger zone temps between 4 to 40c when it wasn't inoculated with a good yeast pitch rate etc.

Edit:
Cant break the basic rules of food safety. Beer needs to get down to cool enough to pitch the yeast safely so the yeast is the first microbe to get set loose in your fresh sweet wort. Also in highly dominant numbers too. Check correct pitch rates of your yeast. Over pitch is better than underpitch.

 

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

I have got infections with chill in kettle/ FV.

HDPE cubes are cheap and effective at protecting hot wort until it gets to pitch temps.