Is A Mash Without Temp Pockets Actually Better?

[PistolPatch]

Maintaining a consistent temperature throughout the mash is a bit of a 'god' in brewing. For this reason, some traditional brewers will feel compelled to employ pumps/heaters to recirculate their wort and BIABrewers will stir their wort occasionally and apply heat to avoid these temperature pockets.

But...

Traditional brewers without a pump/agitator and heater can't control the temperature of their mash once they have, 'struck,' and, quite a few BIABrewers don't bother with my advice to check and adjust temperatures constantly through the mash so they too, will end up with a mash of varying temperatures.

The top and middle (and other unforeseen places) will be hotter than the sides and bottom by 10 C (often a lot more).

I always maintain my mash temperature as best as I can but I think that I could well be wrong.

I can't see any reason why a mash that has pockets varying between 60 and 70 C wouldn't produce a beer that might even be more interesting than one produced from a mash of a consistent 65 C.

I don't expect any definitive answers from this thread as there can't be until many side by sides are done which is something that will never happen.

It's certainly easier to get repeatable results if you can maintain a consistent mash temp but is there any other reason why us worshippers of a consistent mash temp should hold it up to be such a god? Or, are we worshippers missing out on some subtle complexity that a mash full of temperature variations might give us?

:unsure:
PP

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

I'll be very interested to hear the responses of some of the more experienced brewers.

The only comparison i can think of was the ANHC system wars they did at the G&G, HERMS recirculated, BIAB stirred but the Gravity didn't, end result was BIAB by a whisker over Gravity and HERMS is still running.

Not sure if this adds any value to the real answer but an interesting result.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I come with a weak technical knowledge base, but I understand the principals involved in a hotter or colder mash. Its clear to me that certain sections of my mash will be affected differently by the temperatures in the mash, so I am getting an "average". Certainly my wort should not be as controlled as uniform mash temps as PP states. Better beer / worse beer? Certainly cannot say. But I understand what Pat is saying. Another outside the square posting PP that will make people think that little bit more about their mashing techniques and equipment. :icon_cheers:

 

[Jazzafish]

Hi PP.

My opinion is that you will still make quality wort with temperature pockets. But you hit the nail on the head when you commented on consistency or repeatable results. Things you may notice are a varying head retention between batches or attenuation swings. A consistent mash technique is really what it is about, but that said an even temperature throughout the mash is an advantage as it will give you more control in creating your fermentables.

However, if you enjoy your beer the way you make it then your doing the right thing!

 

[MHB]

I guess there are two types of brewers; I'm a technical brewer and the idea of cold spots and not having 1^oC and down to the minute reproducibility in my brewing - well frankly scares me shitless. When I make a beer I love I will be able to make it exactly the same again.

The other side of the coin is that people have been making Alcohol from grain since we stopped chasing animals off cliffs to get food. It's a natural process that will happen unless you do something egregiously wrong. And frankly unless you really are interested in the theory and technology of brewing it won't matter a dam.

Still the very idea makes me want to...




MHB

 

[manticle]

I can imagine it having a negative impact if you use single infusion mashes at either extreme (although particularly in the high region). For example if, as you say we can be mashing 10degrees C higher in one spot, a 68 degree mash might denature some enzymes before they've converted any starch.

I long ago discovered that hot/cold spots in my mash make my dial thermometer superfluous and have to rely on a glass stick thermometer and an 'average' - hence I've taken to stepping most of my sacch rests. I like the results anyway and seem to have no noticeable issues with starch haze or poor attenuation.

Maybe a single infusion at 64-65 actually ends up acting a bit like a step mash but I can't imagine there's any major benefit to massive fluctuations within the tun.

'Imagine', hypothetical, non technical, non scientific etc, etc.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think manticle has hit on the only thing i can think of that might be a "problem" - and thats if you happen to measure your temp in one of the particularly warm or cold spots, then decide you need to change something on that basis.

So i mash in, measure my temp in a spot that just happens to be on the low side, swear and tip in some boiling water to bring it up - Measure and this time get a hot spot, curse the gods of brewing and go for some cold water.... Etc etc etc. And now i have a brew - good bad or otherwise that i have bugger all chance of ever repeating, because at no time did i ever actually know what was going on in the mash.

If your process is consistent, you mash in (physically) the same way every time, you measure your temperture at the same times, in the same spot - then you introduce repeatability in other areas to compensate, and your actual temperature doesn,t matter so much - you can simply vary your mash temps based on results and get pretty consistent beers - but you need that consistancy somewhere if you expect any consistance in your results.

Of course - a lot of people dont care about consistent, they are happy with variable as long as its all good. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[MarkBastard]

Does this definately happen with biab? I strike at 70, mix well, dough in and mix very well and measure 67 degrees all throughout the mash. An hour later it's 64.5 degrees all throughout the mash. Can you measure this 10 degrees of difference or is it some theroetical thing?

 

[Goofinder]

I reckon you would struggle to get a +/- 10C differential in a homebrew scale mash. 3 or 4 degrees maybe.

I mash in, stir for a while, move the thermometer around until it's the temperature I want and reasonably consistent throughout the mash. Then I put the foam cover in the esky and take the temperature through two holes that I put in it. I record the average of these two (usually within 0.5-1 degree) as the mash temperature. I don't even bother checking the temperature at the end any more as generally moves less than a degree.

I consistently get more fermentable worts when I mash lower (around 64-65C) and less fermentable when I mash higher (around 67-68C). That tells me I'm getting it right enough for what I want.

Give it a good stir when you mash in and you'll be right!

 

[mika]

Measuring the mash temp on my trad 3V System, I'll see a couple of degrees difference around the tun, even after a 5min wait for the temp to stabilise, anything past 5C diff and I'd be thinking I hadn't stirred thoroughly enough though. I tend to practice what Thirsty is preaching and try to mash in, stir and take the temperature in exactly the same way. Experience tells me that a 1C change in mash temp on the 'same' recipe will produce notable differences, thus I've placed my faith in the law of averages.

 

[peaky]

10 degrees would be a huge difference in the mash temp wouldn't it? I've never measured a difference that big before at the beginning, during, or at the end of my mash, even when I measure the temp at different spots. If it's 65 in the middle it maybe a couple degrees lower anywhere around the edges of the tun.

I use a 44 litre esky and add the strike water first at about 6 degrees hotter than I want it, then let it sit with the lid on for 5 or 10 minutes to settle down to strike temp. The esky usually soaks up the extra heat quite quickly, I usually add the grain at about 0.5 degrees above strike temp to make up for heat loss from giving the mash a really good stir in.

I would imagine not preheating mash tun may give you 10 degrees difference, seems like a lot though.

 

[Brewme]

I'm new to AG brewing.

I've got a U-beaut fully insulated esky for my mash tun with home made manifold and bits and pieces.

I try to maintain a uniform temperature during the mash and sparge.

To me, a few degrees either way won't bother me. Gotta be better than a bland K&K.


For those who really worry about temp differences.......Buy one of those Speidel Braumeister brewing systems. Guaranteed to keep the temps spot on. I'm only an AG beginner, so I really don't need one. But I'm getting one 'cause I ain't got one.

cheers

 

[QldKev]

Maybe someone could come up with an idea for a Mash System that Recirculates through a Heat Exchanger; and call it a Heat Exchanged Recirculating Mash System.

h34r:

QldKev

 

[peaky]

Maybe someone could come up with an idea for a Mash System that Recirculates through a Heat Exchanger; and call it a Heat Exchanged Recirculating Mash System.

h34r:

QldKev

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[hoohaaman]

I guess there are two types of brewers; I'm a technical brewer and the idea of cold spots and not having 1^oC and down to the minute reproducibility in my brewing - well frankly scares me shitless. When I make a beer I love I will be able to make it exactly the same again.

The other side of the coin is that people have been making Alcohol from grain since we stopped chasing animals off cliffs to get food. It's a natural process that will happen unless you do something egregiously wrong. And frankly unless you really are interested in the theory and technology of brewing it won't matter a dam.

Still the very idea makes me want to...



View attachment 42963
MHB

Guess someone forgot to tell them crazy monks

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks for the great reads above, several which managed to combine some great comedy . Great to see some thoughtful posts.

I think I exaggerated on the ten degree bit :huh:. I seem to remember though reading a few posts here from brewers getting fairly wild fluctuations in their mash tuns. Perhaps 3 - 5 C would be a more realistic and common figure. 10 C in a tall, thick-bottomed, non-insulated mash tun might be possible though .

Maybe this 3 to 5 C variance adds character of some sort? I don't have the palate skills to detect such differences and, the scientist in me questions, that if there is a perceived difference, was this because of a different fermenter etc, etc, etc... But I do like questioning the advice I hand on, that being to keep a regular and consistent mash temp as best you can. Most esky batch spargers just, "set and forget," as do quite a few BIAB brewers and they seem to have no problems and commonly excel...

I suppose I am always looking at ways to become a lazy and relaxed brewer. I suspect I am way too fastidious and precise at the moment.

:blink:
Pat

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Guess someone forgot to tell them crazy monks

which monks?

Achel - stirred, step mash
Westvleteren - stirred, stepped mash.
Orval - stirred, step mash.
Rochefort - step infusion mash
Westemalle - step infusion mash

the monks got with the "modern" brewing program in the 60's - they've all got PLCs and computers in their breweries and would probably cross themselves, look to the heavens and punch you in the face for suggesting that they weren't in control of their process to within 1C of accuracy

 

[rude]

Good thread PP I recon also just to chime in once youre beer is ready for tasting & you have taken notes of you mashing temps you can adjust.

I always move the thermometer around after underletting ( biggest temp equaliser for me with a bit of a stir with the paddle )

I can feel the thermometer going into dry balls sometimes so mash in a bit harder with the paddle but dont wont to over do it

Thats my theory with no scientific backing but just observation of the mash & drinking the product

Wish I had more idea about tasting & smelling the aroma but Im still practicing much to the scorn of my women

 

[PistolPatch]

LOL Thirsty :lol:! (And, informative, as always.)

rude: Great to hear from you! Time we had another brew day or better still, just go and have a beer. Let me know if you have the time...

I see you mentioned, "paddle." I suspect you mean the traditional type mash paddle which you have to stir. If so, I think such paddles are not really suited to home-brewing. I don't use a 'mash' paddle, I use a large potato 'masher' . So, I don't 'stir', I 'plunge,' if that makes any sense. I have no idea what a dough ball is as I have honestly never had one.

A traditional mash "paddle," is another one of those brewing gods I can't make sense of. I'm sure it has some sense in history somewhere and I'd love to know why. I suspect it was a tool used to stir and 'even' the mash temperature easily in large mashes rather than a tool used to break up dough balls. :huh: Maybe us home-brewers have miniaturised such a device to a level that is inappropriate?

So, paddles might not be off-topic here seeing as we are talking of brewing gods - lol!

Spot,
PP

 

[AndrewQLD]

My theory has always been that it's consistency that is most important in your brewing and this is one of those areas I think it applies.

If you mash the same every single time then in theory your cold/hot spots will be the same each brew session and your mash results should be the same each brew allowing you to get a consistent result from your mash each time.
Once you are mashing consistently it's only a matter of tweaking your mash temp up or down to get the desired result. If part of your mash is consistently lower in temp than the rest then your end results will be predictable.

I will be the first to put my hand up as a brewer who became anal about hot/cold spots which is one of the reasons I turned to a HERMS system, having said that my beers are no different for negating the hot/cold spots as I had already tweaked my procedures to allow for them in my original system.

If there is one thing I now realise, sometimes we sweat over the little things too much.

Andrew