IPA recipe help

[technobabble66]

Howdy,
In spite of my love for hoppy beers, this is my first attempt at an AIPA. I've put together a recipe that i think is ok, but thought i'd throw it up here to see if there's any feedback on something i've missed (or over-thought!).

4 C's on the Horizon, AIPA
23L
OG = 1.063
FG = 1.015
IBU = 55.5
alc = 6.6%
EBC = 17.3

2kg MO
1.7kg Boh Pils (just to use up excess Pils malt)
1kg Munich 2
0.5kg Victory
0.5kg Wheat malt
0.25kg Carapils (bought but never used, thought i might as well try it here)
0.05kg Acidulated

1.4g CaSO4 & MgSO4 + 2.2g CaCl2 into mash
1.1g CaSO4 & MgSO4 + 1.7g CaCl2 into sparge
0.75g CaSO4 & MgSO4 + 1g CaCl2 into boil

20L Mash, 15L Sparge
55/66/72/78 for 5/65/20/2

5g Horizon FWH
20g each of Columbus/Citra/Chinook/Cascade into cube (as per 20min addition)
20g each of Columbus/Citra/Chinook/Cascade dry hopped after fermentation.

Ferment with 1272, at 19°C.
-------------

So basically the malts are: Ale + Munich + Victory, plus some Wheat/Carapils for extra head/body.
The hops seem a decent combo, but i was wondering if i should increase/decrease the proportions of the hops (or if it's an oversight not including Simcoe!).
The IBUs are within the style range, but probably the main query was whether the ratios of IBUs-to-OG-to-FG looks about right.

Cheers!

 

[jimmy86]

To me the malt combo seems too complex for an IPA, it lends itself more to an apa grain bill.

What I would do is drop the wheat, carapils, and victory then bump up the base to required OG. Let the hops shine.

Since I chill a can't comment on the hop schedule but the combo looks bloody nice.

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks Jimmy
Yeah, it looks like too many things.
Normally the pils wouldn't be there so that's an extra also.
I generally like Victory/Amber so it's hard not to include a little. I'll drop the wheat. Carapils I'm keen to try but maybe you're right - for the first attempt I'll do a simpler grist.

In terms of hops, I can chill also w a plate chiller; but I've noticed some of the no-chillers in Vic seem to still produce good IPAs by high amounts of cube hopping - esp Yob - though I'm not sure how much hoppiness is coming from keg-hopping.
I'd wonder if cube hopping could actually capture the most hoppy flavours/aromas as the volatile oils cannot escape and must incorporate fully into the wort.

TBH, I was torn between chilling as its reputed to be best for maintaining hoppiness, and no chilling for simplicity & that theory of cube hopping capturing the most of the oils.

Also, I've got 2 lagers lagering in my ferm fridge for another week, so I'm trying to build up a stock of cubes at the moment; so a cube-hopped IPA seemed like a good idea. If the general consensus is chilling is def the way to go, I'll simply cube something else!

Thoughts?

 

[kunfaced]

I've had great results in flame out additions, dumping hops in at 95c and 60c steeping for 15min at each interval. It takes a bit of stirring to break the hops apart at 60c but well worth it. I try to maintain a whirlpool during these steeps.

Just read you have a plate chiller though, do you have an immersion also? I mentioned this because i was doing no chill hopped cubes which were good, but have had far better results doing the flame out additions.

If you are dropping the wheat I would leave the Carapils in. It doesn't add much to the beer flavour wise but its great for head retention.

 

[technobabble66]

Hey kunfaced,
Thanks! Good to hear your experience between no-chill and chill.
Don't have an immersion chiller, just the plate.
However, i've got a pump and i've recirculated through the chiller after flameout to drop the temp in the kettle quickly. I can normally get the temp down to 65°C within 5 mins.
My concern is that the whole time a get a big nose full of hops aroma - meaning it's not in the wort. So my thoughts were that maybe cube-hopping kept it all in the wort.
So it's v interesting you've found that chilling makes a better result. I wonder if it's from chemical changes in the volatile oils that detract from the aromatics, or if its from the slow filling of the cube allows a lot of the oils to escape anyway.
Conversely i've done a couple of beers with hops additions after i've dropped to 65°C - seems to work reasonably well.

Maybe for all the hops i'm gonna blow on this, I should stick to the recirculating chill technique and re-do the hops schedule - do the above 20mins additions as 15mins and then do a similar set as chilled whirlpool additions. Wow, that's gonna add up to a lot of hops!

And i'll have to do a different beer to cube in the meantime.

 

[Yob]

I generally hit a cube to about 150g to 200g for an aipa. (100g to 150g for apa)

I tend not to use carapils anymore but if you've got it, use it up.. I love wheat in my aipa's and will generally go to about 1/4 to 1/3 of the grist..

It'd be great if you could run this recipe twice, once chilled and the other cubed..

I've been hitting a sweet spot last couple of kegs and not keg hopping or dry hopping at all... Shit you not.

Rest looks pretty good. Acidulated looks a touch light to my thumb, I use about 150g on a light bill like that, but you do have Munich which will help.

 

[technobabble66]

Cheers Yob!
Yeah - i'd been heavily influenced by our previous conversations in coming up with that grist - plus a desire to use some Victory, and get rid of some CaraPils, & Boh Pils.

No keg or dry hopping?? WTF? Still getting big aroma (& flava)?
What's the "sweet spot" you've found? - 60+20+0mins additions or just the 150-200g cubed?

Agree - i might try to run 2 versions to see if i can tell which works best. The only problem is they'll realistically be months apart. But it provides a good excuse to go ahead and do this cube-hopped version now, and try the recirc-chill version next time.

The acidulated is pretty light - i'd normally do 100g - however Bru'n Water seemed to think it'd hit pH 5.3, which is about where i try to target it. Sound right, or do you normally target 5.2?

Also, I'm thinking i might drop the main mash temp to 65°C or 64°C to drop the FG and dry it out a fraction more.

 

[Yob]

No keg or dry hopping?? WTF? Still getting big aroma (& flava)?
What's the "sweet spot" you've found? - 60+20+0mins additions or just the 150-200g cubed?

I know right? The Citra Equinox Im drinking now is just fantastic as is.. was pretty heavily done, 100 equinox and 50 citra and the grist was fairly normal for me (Pale ale not IPA)

was going to keg hop it, had planned on it but finding its just not needed, very happy withit as is so not going to mess with it.. I guess thats one of the good things about this method, it allows you to tweak to suit tastes :beerbang:

 

[indica86]

I don't cube hop but flameout hop heaps.
Making lots of IPAs that is what works well for me. I usually throw around 100g to 150g of whatever into the urn to get IBU close to OG as well as a small battering addition.
IE 1066 I'll go for 66 ibu.

Your recipe looks good but I'd up the cube hops to increase match the OG.

 

[technobabble66]

Tweaked a little:

4 C's on the Horizon, AIPA
25L
OG = 1.060
FG = 1.013
IBU = 61.3
alc = 6.6%
EBC = 15.1

2.5kg MO
2kg Boh Pils (just to use up excess Pils malt)
1kg Munich 2
0.3kg Victory
0.5kg Wheat malt
0.3kg Carapils (bought but never used, thought i might as well try it here)
0.1kg Acidulated

1.4g CaSO4 & MgSO4 + 2.2g CaCl2 into mash
1.1g CaSO4 & MgSO4 + 1.7g CaCl2 + 0.2g citric acid into sparge
0.75g CaSO4 & MgSO4 + 1g CaCl2 into boil

20L Mash, 15L Sparge
55/66/72/78 for 5/65/20/2

2g Horizon FWH
25g each of Columbus/Citra/Chinook/Cascade into cube (as per 20min addition)
20g each of Columbus/Citra/Chinook/Cascade dry hopped after fermentation.

Ferment with 1272, at 19°C.
-------------------------------------------

Decided to go with the idea of brewing 2 batches. This is the first, which uses mainly cube-hopping to cover the both bittering & late additions. The next will be done using a plate chiller and a split between 20mins & 0mins additions.
Otherwise, ditched the Wheat to simplify the grist and reduced the Victory to keep the input from the malts simple - to bring the focus back to the hops. And brought the IBUs up to match the OG (seemed a consistent guide from my various readings, and Indica above)

Just gotta wait for a brew day now!!

 

[manticle]

Melbourne water, some toasted malts and salt additions - is the acidulated necessary?

 

[rude]

Just a learner question I see you add salts to you're sparge & you're kettle

Any reason for that ?

I have been throwing my sparge salts all in the kettle using Brun to calc

Cheers rude

 

[TheWiggman]

I'm guessing these are outputs from Bru'n Water. I agree, acidulated shouldn't be required. Whatever might be able to adjust the pH as you need it could go in the mash instead of the kettle. Even ditch the acidulated altogether, how high is the mash likely to go?

 

[Crusty]

I've had trouble adjusting some grain bills using EZ Water Calc & had to throw in up to 100gms of Acidulated malt into the recipe instead of trying to adjust the brewing salt additions too far. On the odd occasion, I've got the salt additions where I want them but the mash pH is still a touch too high. The small addition of the Acidulated gets the pH in range. It really depends on what you want to achieve with your additions but I like to aim for a balanced beer for most of what I make. Malty or hop forward beers are the exception of course.

 

[technobabble66]

Melbourne water, some toasted malts and salt additions - is the acidulated necessary?

pH only gets down to 5.5 without the Acidulated malt. Shouldn't be necessary, but i prefer to try to get it down to ~5.3. I've tested using a pH meter after ~20mins Mashing, and it seems to hit ~5.25-5.35, which correlates with the calculations.
Happy to be enlightened if i'm missing something here, though.

Just a learner question I see you add salts to you're sparge & you're kettle

Any reason for that ?

I have been throwing my sparge salts all in the kettle using Brun to calc

Cheers rude

I'm still not 100% sure what the salts have improved in my beers, partly because i've been varying too many things over the last 2 years (both recipes & equipment). However, i'm now at a stage where i think the equipment side of things is down pat, so i can try a side-by-side to compare the impact of water. Will be done over the next year to confirm my usage.
Also, having studied a fair bit of chemistry, cell biology/biochemistry & nutrition, i decided a while ago that the reasoning (& history) behind the minimum levels for some of the key minerals seemed like a solid guide (e.g.: 50ppm Ca, 8-10ppm Mg). Hence i try to get certain minerals to their minimum levels with these salt additions.
I add salts to both the mash and the sparge to maintain the same mineral state of the water the whole way through the process. It is primarily to minimise the extraction of undesirable flavours/compounds, like tannins, from the sparging. A tiny whisker of citric acid also helps maintain the acidity of the sparge for the same reason.
I add salts to the boil for 2 reasons. 1 - because manticle does/suggested it and he seems to understand the salt stuff better than me. 2 - because i can see that some salts may remain trapped in the grain bed rather than making it to the FV (esp. with recirc-ing the mashout to trap crud); and that the ideal level of minerals in the mash may be a little different to the ideal levels in the boil.
I've always intended to do a little more reading on this to be sure of the reasoning behind it, but so far it's been postponed.

Happy to be corrected/clarified here.

I'm guessing these are outputs from Bru'n Water. I agree, acidulated shouldn't be required. Whatever might be able to adjust the pH as you need it could go in the mash instead of the kettle. Even ditch the acidulated altogether, how high is the mash likely to go?

Yep. Calculated on Bru'n Water (- it estimates just the mash and sparge additions). I just guesstimate from those what seems like a little extra boost for the kettle. I kinda figure that the extra bit of minerals is enough to help a little bit, but not that much that they'd be detrimental if they're unnecessary.
Again, happy to be corrected/clarified here.

I've had trouble adjusting some grain bills using EZ Water Calc & had to throw in up to 100gms of Acidulated malt into the recipe instead of trying to adjust the brewing salt additions too far. On the odd occasion, I've got the salt additions where I want them but the mash pH is still a touch too high. The small addition of the Acidulated gets the pH in range. It really depends on what you want to achieve with your additions but I like to aim for a balanced beer for most of what I make. Malty or hop forward beers are the exception of course.

I initially used EZ water quite a lot, but i think i wanted something with a little more detail, and what seemed to be a bit more precision & accuracy.

Ultimately what i've aimed to achieve with my salts/acids additions is to use the minimum amounts to achieve the desired level of (bio)chemistry - eg: cell biochemistry, enzyme optimisation, flocculation, etc.
Some pilsners historically seems to have been successfully brewed with very soft water & virtually no salt additions. To me, that indicates the general process is pretty close to right without any artificial manipulation. Hence, i try to keep additions as simple & minimal as possible to reduce the risk of unwanted flavour elements creeping in. Conversely, i'm also keen to optimise my process so i have opted to use some additions. As such, i tend towards a balanced mineral profile - i.e.: close to a 1:1 ratio between SO4 & Cl, with a slight bias towards Cl for malty beers and SO4 for hoppy beers.

 

[rude]

Cheers mate thanks for the reply

I use R/O water & also was worried about the salts not making it to the kettle hence all into the boil
not sure if this is right ?

I don't recirc just (vorlauf) simple 3v system

Still have only just started with the water & it has made a big difference for me I'll never go back (Perth water)

By the way I have never made an AIPA but your'e recipe looks alright but like Jimmy86's comment

The simple recipes always seem the best to me

 

[manticle]

Mash salts adjust mash pH, sparge salts adjust sparge pH, boil salts adjust boil pH.
Associated minerals affect flavour and hop/malt balance.

In order of importance for me :
1. Mash (pH)
2. Boil (flavour balance)
3.Sparge (unless your sparge water is highly alkaline which can create issues - if it is, this is more important but so is looking at your water source).

 

[technobabble66]

....

The simple recipes always seem the best to me

Yep, true.
But I can't help myself. I have a problem.
And far to many spec malts in my cupboard :lol:

 

[technobabble66]

... boil salts adjust boil pH....

Yeah, that's the bit i need to read a bit more about.

 

[manticle]

If your mash pH is good, your boil should follow so for me it is mostly flavour (chloride for malt, sulphate for hops)