Infection help.

[Lecterfan]

Firstly, I know there are hundreds of these threads. I have read, and even participated in many of them.

Also apologies for the length of the thread - frustration will do that to a fella.


But I am now at the point where I am ready to give up the hobby altogether.

This will now be the 5th batch since late last year that has been infected. I racked a saison out very early from underneath one of these and it was 'ok' (read drinkable and still nice and tart/dry), but so far I have had to tip out:
*another saison
*an alt (two hour boil, all munich and pils, smelled amazing through the ferment)
* a winter ale - full of treacle and other goodness
*now possibly a sumptious dubbel...full of ding pils, candi syrup etc.


Now. This latest - the Dubbel - is after throwing out all my old fermenters, boiling my two piece keggle tap in PBW for about 20 minutes (there was not much in it), using a brand new bunnings fermenter that I had soaked in hot water and sod perc/sod met mix then rinsed with boiling water from the kettle several times.

No hoses or anything else touches the wort.

The copper immersion cooler goes in with a full 15 mins left of the boil and is then cleaned in sod perc/met mix in the keggle at the end of each brew day.

After the main 'steaminess' of the beer dies down (after flameout) and I start running water through the chiller I cover the keggle loosely in alfoil so nothing can drop in etc.

The ferment fridge had not yet been used AS a ferment fridge but I still bleached the living shit out of it.

The wort went into the fermenter, an active starter of 1214 (that showed no signs of infection) was pitched, two blissful weeks of fermentation... no glad wrap, just the lid backed off a half turn. The lid was removed once at high krausen on about day 3 to add 100gms white sugar that had been boiled down in 150mls water.


NOW - this has been the pattern with all of them: test gravity around the end of week two, no smell or taste of anything bad, gravity almost there. Decide to leave for a few more days (had some acetaldehyde problems recently that a few more days on the yeast should have cleaned up)...come back towards the middle or end of the third week and I am faced with a layer of scum and some isolated bubbles forming...I hope the attached picture is enough visual evidence.

The smell is sweet, in a horrid way, the taste likewise - a sweetness that is detectable well above the malt/yeast/hop flavours in the beer.

In the ferment fridge is the stc1000 temp probe and a red heat plate standing up behind the fermenters. Both of these things presumably would have been covered in wy1469 from a beer that eventually turned out to be infected. They have been starsanned but not heavily bleached or anything, plus they did not come in physical contact with the wort. The beers in the blue willow so far have been fine....but this square bunnings fermenter was BRAND NEW.

So seriously - is it something airborne? Could it be coming from me? Beard net time?

Thanks for any input.

I really thought the new fermenter etc would solve the problem given that it's not every brew that is infected...

 

[bum]

In your situation I'd first be trying to manage my fermenters so they don't suck air in when a sample is taken (i.e. lid and bubbler or gladwrap).

Other than that the only standout variable I see that you haven't addressed is maybe your starters. Have you tried a batch by direct pitching a decent amount of dried yeast? Even if only to exclude that process from consideration.

Commiserations, man. That pic is nasty. Good luck.

 

[WarmBeer]

...The beers in the blue willow so far have been fine....but this square bunnings fermenter was BRAND NEW...

You may have answered your own question.

And, no, dont give up.

 

[Lecterfan]

Yes, I moved away from glad wrap though only recently in an effort to curb the problem (as I had been using a lot of top croppers that would constantly blow the wrap off etc). When I took samples with an airlock I would back the lid off also.

Even beers that have been pitched with dry yeast have had problems.

WB - are you suggesting that if I do have something airborne then minimising any potential air contact at all is a possible solution? The fact that the bunnings fermenter is brand new is just heartbreaking.

What's most annoying is that after being AG for a couple of years now I am just starting to dial in my process and make half decent beers. Then this shit.

another edit - now following conventional wisdom I have to throw away a brand new fermenter that cost $20 and didn;t even really get one full use out of it. That shit stings when doing post-grad with no scholarship!

 

[stakka82]

Nothing constructive to add here but really feel for you mate, I had a spate of infections about 2 months back and I was so disgusted I could barely bring myself to browse AHB.

I did much as you have, pulled apart all gear including keg fridge, binned anything worth less than $40, went to town with sodium perc/boiling water/star san with everything else, bought a new fermenter to do a test run. In my case it worked, I can't imagine what you must be feeling going through that and still having issues.

FWIW the spidery stuff in the pic looks bacterial, I have no experience or reference to back that up just hazy memory of infection picture threads.

Best of luck mate, chin up...

 

[Lecterfan]

So just tipped it. As with all the others, the shit starts to grow after a good healthy and vigorous ferment. You can see the krausen and bits of rubbish then with pale milky white infection cnut growing on top of it.

After running some out through the tap the infection stuff clings to the sides...

Another annoying thing is that there don't seem to be any early signs of this infection...nothign until after two weeks or so. Perhaps the beers in the blue willow had it as well and I just managed to keg them before it got too noticeable?

Farkin thing.

Would love to have someone identify it best they could. I remember Manticle tasted a shit one for me and I think he said it had acetate (?) in it...

 

[potof4x]

I feel your pain but soldier on bud. One thing to look at might be your lids, are you pulling the o ring out and cleaning each batch? Good luck!

 

[Lecterfan]

Thanks for the sympathies... to reiterate -

I have been using Glad wrap for the last 18 or more months. This infection above is in a brand new bunnings fermenter that had all it's components soaked in sod perc/met mix and hot water overnight then rinsed several times with boiling water prior to use.

 

[manticle]

I'm about to go out but I had a spate of infections at one point. A massive cleaning regime (which I will post later) and no chilling, then fermenting directly in the cube seemed to get rid of it (at least 2 years, now on a different property).

That growth looks like acetobacter a bit but I'm not expert in skins. Could be lacto (I don't think so from your description) - where are you cracking your grain?

Otherwise some wild yeast often grows skin and leaves nail polish remover flavours (acetone) so could be a plant on your property or nearby.

 

[Lecterfan]

Bumping for any other thoughts- yes it's a long thread, but the possible cause is doing my head in.

The cleaning regime that Manticle mentions above cannot be much more than I've done already with equipment etc...there is nothing flowering etc around the place....just after thoughts and hypotheses on the infection...

...I am paranoid to the point of saying ALL my brews must be thusly infected and just the ones that get to FG quick enough and taste ok from the sample and then get kegged are lucky enough to be removed from conditions that allow it to grow given that it kicks in AFTER the two week mark every time...

 

[bum]

I know it's a shit idea on several levels but what if you did a straight kit, no samples to suck air in, see what it looks like at, say, 3 weeks? If it is clean you know...wait...what? something, I guess. Then start adding variables back in one by one.

I realise that's a crappy idea in terms of both time and resources but if you get to the point where you want to give it away instead it's worth a shot, maybe.

 

[Lecterfan]

Nah - I actually did it (your suggestion) a while (two brews) ago haha...and at the end of two weeks it was 'ok', and I kegged it...and after kegging I noticed there was a tiny blotch of milky white on top of the krausen ring stuck on the side of the fermenter...so even in that scenario it appeared even though it didn't have time to spread and take effect.

...the beer itself exhibits no problems... this is what gets me...if I keg early enough there seems to be no worries, but if I leave it the infection seems inexorable...

 

[Yob]

What about the fridge they are fermented in mate?

 

[bum]

I think you need to sacrifice a virgin, man. You've greatly offended Cthulhu.

You'd almost have to say it's gotta be airborne then if that exposure is the only thing you've not been able to remove from the equation. Although you'd think the new fridge would have to help there.

 

[slcmorro]

I'm just a pup in brew terms Rich, but just to throw a spanner in the works here, could it possibly be something in your piping? I get the same water as you being in Ballarat East, so I doubt it's the water supply. It might potentially be isolated to your own plumbing? I dunno, just an idea.

 

[Lecterfan]

Yea yob, it's in a new fridge (in terms of fermenting) - it has not had fermenting beers in it before...and even still I cleaned the sucker with bleach and hot water...I have literally exhausted every technique a sane and conscientious brewer might do, thus my frustration...

Clay - plumbing doesn't make sense in that EVERY brew should be infected since the first one (back in Dec)...

....ahhh I dunno...thanks everyone though...glad to know I've at least tried what most sane people would do (and even questionably sane as I've used some nasty vinegar and bleach combos and everything)....

I put down one today using two packs of us05...I'll try one on Sunday with two packs t58 and I'll see how they go in two weeks or so...




To answer manticle: I grind my grain in the kitchen...if it is something that survives the 90 min boil then I'm pretty much fucked aren't I?

 

[Yob]

Maybe ferment a lager out in the shed..?? Different environment maybe? I could send you some starsan as well to double treat the fridge? (missed that somehow in the op)

 

[Lecterfan]

I starsanned it as well DAMMIT! I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG....WHERE WERE THE **** WERE YOUUUUUUUUUUUU?????

WHEEEERE DA FARK WERE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?????

 

[Yob]

Take off and nuke it from orbit

 

[Bizier]

I reckon you should be able to ferment in a pretty bad environment with good technique. I reckon nc + dry yeast but manage open times well, ideally with flame plume technique or something similar. To get such a count of micro growth is unusual.

Perhaps get a known sanitation ninja over for brew day.

Don't give up, your contributions to the listening thread are valuable!