Infection help.

[TasChris]

Hi Rich, Try brewing somewhere else with your gear...may exclude your environment

 

[WarmBeer]

Don't give up, your contributions to the listening thread are valuable!

And his beard is exemplary.

 

[TasChris]

Lecterfan wants to come to Tas and have a brew day with me....and his infection curse.

Not bloody likely.

 

[Lecterfan]

I have actually considered no-chill to see if it eradicates the possibility of an airborne thing wafting in during the chilling process... I would've thought I was almost a black belt in ninja sanitisation to be honest (my shuriken technique is flawless...admittedly my kuji-kiri suffers from my beer gut and man boobs)...thus my frustration with this horrid little milky white sweet smelling honky tonk mofo appearing after an otherwise awesome, indeed seemingly textbook, fermentation...

...I limp onwards...

Chris - I had not thought of that...I shall stay at a distance!!! 2000 kilometres ought to do it haha...

 

[Bizier]

Maybe you need to get funky in order to think like the enemy. Maybe you need to get... BLACK BELT JONES sanitation!

 

[manticle]

Sorry if you mentioned it but how are your kegs travelling?

 

[manticle]

And lines, taps etc?

 

[Lecterfan]

The brews that don't seem suspect are fine out of the kegs... the only ones out of the kegs that were suspect (and there's only been two) were highly suspect going IN to the kegs (I was living in the fantasy that I could 'rack it out from underneath').

Lines, taps, everything post-fermentation seems fine...

....as I say the real kick in the guts is that the infection has occurred again in a brand new fermenter that had a lid on for the vast majority of the ferment lifted twice, once to add the sugar solution at high krausen day three and once at about 1.5 weeks in to check it wasn't covered in the horrible milky skin that it eventually was), was in a fridge that was new to fermenting but that I had bleached (and subsequently starsanned) the fark out of etc...

It seems the infection was always going to be there... literally nothing in my 8 years of cold-side/fermentation schedule has changed (with the exception of improvements to temp control and cleanliness etc), yet this is the only persistent infection I've had with the exception of one minor 'gusher' situation about 4 years ago now.

Doing my head in.

At least when a beer is shit for an obvious and identifiable reason I can learn something from it....

 

[TasChris]

do you use an immersion chiller. This was the source of my infections...leaking unsanitised tank water into cooling wort

 

[Lecterfan]

The copper immersion cooler goes in with a full 15 mins left of the boil and is then cleaned in sod perc/met mix in the keggle at the end of each brew day.

do you use an immersion chiller. This was the source of my infections...leaking unsanitised tank water into cooling wort

come onnnn, read the OP hahahaha (chill out everyone, we are almost friendly with one another in real life)...it doesn't leak, I don't have volume issues like you did and I checked for leakage by running through it in a dry pot.

Anyway... farked if I know. I'll do another brew on Sunday in the other brand new fermenter that is sitting there waiting to be used and see how that goes in two weeks.

The brew from today went perfectly so far, hit my targets, looks and smells good...pitched two packs us05 into a 1.065 wort...will see how it goes.

 

[Bizier]

Breweries are inherently less sanitary in general because of the amount of waste material which is food for beer/wort spoilage organisms, yet it is necessary to produce clean beer. I still put it to technique. I ferment clean beers in plastic fermenters I have brewed with brett and pedio in the past. And no, I am not blind to off flavours. I occasionally boil all gear and try to minimise any instances where it is necessary to have the fermenter, or, even worse, starter open to air, like only as open as needed and lightning quick. Also having your yeast ferment that shit in a few days will help, so get it primed, viable and angry.

 

[jyo]

That sucks, Lecter. Tipping a beer is never fun.
As has been suggested, try a few no chills consecutively and see how you go.

How often do you take gravity readings? I had an infection last year and narrowed it down to my over-zealous tasting out of the fermenter. I'm talking hydrometer readings every day. (It was my first mild and it gave me an excuse to sample it!) I am pretty sure I drew some air-borne nasties in which infected it.

Hope you get it sorted, mate.

 

[MaltyHops]

Yes, I moved away from glad wrap though only recently in an effort to curb the problem (as I had been using a lot of top croppers that would constantly blow the wrap off etc). When I took samples with an airlock I would back the lid off also.

Even beers that have been pitched with dry yeast have had problems.

WB - are you suggesting that if I do have something airborne then minimising any potential air contact at all is a possible solution? The fact that the bunnings fermenter is brand new is just heartbreaking.

What if you go back to using glad wrap and only ferment enough wort to fill half (or less) of the fermenter so there's no way the krausen will reach the top ... don't bother taking readings at all, let it keep going for three or four weeks when it should well and truly have finished fermenting and see if you still get unwelcome guests growing without having exposed the wort to air (post pitching).

Was the tap on th eBunnings fermenter also new? Did you take apart the tap (if it's not a new tap) for claning/sanitising? Is there much air movement around where fermenter is?

 

[Maxt]

The only way to nail this is to change one variable at a time and do some small batch test brews of something simple like a pale ale. Do one batch without chiller, see if it infected. If still infected do one batch with a borrowed kettle to eliminate that. If still infected change your transfer hoses/pumps. Another simple experiment would be to brew as usual, but ferment somewhere else (pitch yeast there as well). I have had my share of infections but usually due to yeast lag...I was in a club with one brewer who had a recurring infection which turned out to be the kettle tap...do you/canyou run the boiling wort through it for 15 mins while the chiller is in before flameout? (I did see you had boiled the tap earlier). Good luck, it's heartbreaking to tip beer.

 

[Lecterfan]

Thanks guys.

Also having your yeast ferment that shit in a few days will help, so get it primed, viable and angry.

^This is something another brewer and I were talking about recently...why is it that we often need two weeks for a complete ferment and for the yeast to 'clean up' when (albeit radically different environment and equipment) commercials will pitch and manage rates to have the thing done in a few days? (rhetorical question, I've read 'Yeast').

I am going back to dry yeasts exclusively for a while and will be using two packs for anything over 1.055ish (FFS yeast thread aside)...I did this yesterday in an AIPA, rehydrated one pack and the other pack just got sprinkled in.

As has been suggested, try a few no chills consecutively and see how you go.

^Yes, I think I'll have to give this a go...I have two empty FWK cubes that have been sitting around sealed with napisan in them.

What if you go back to using glad wrap and only ferment enough wort to fill half (or less) of the fermenter so there's no way the krausen will reach the top ... don't bother taking readings at all, let it keep going for three or four weeks when it should well and truly have finished fermenting and see if you still get unwelcome guests growing without having exposed the wort to air (post pitching).
Was the tap on th eBunnings fermenter also new? Did you take apart the tap (if it's not a new tap) for claning/sanitising? Is there much air movement around where fermenter is?

^Yes, everything was new. I am a rigorous cleaner...that is why I am so shocked and upset by this spate...I am now convinced it is airborne. I usually take two gravity readings, the second is done on the day that I keg/bottle.

Going back to dry yeasts for a while so won't need the extra headspace for my selection. Of course I hope you were suggesting to brew over two fermenters and not reduce the volume I'm brewing haha!

I really think the only time it is 'exposed' to air is during the chilling process...ironic given that I am chilling in order to pitch the yeast ASAP.

The only way to nail this is to change one variable at a time and do some small batch test brews of something simple like a pale ale. Do one batch without chiller, see if it infected. If still infected do one batch with a borrowed kettle to eliminate that. If still infected change your transfer hoses/pumps. Another simple experiment would be to brew as usual, but ferment somewhere else (pitch yeast there as well). I have had my share of infections but usually due to yeast lag...I was in a club with one brewer who had a recurring infection which turned out to be the kettle tap...do you/canyou run the boiling wort through it for 15 mins while the chiller is in before flameout? (I did see you had boiled the tap earlier). Good luck, it's heartbreaking to tip beer.

Thanks Maxt. I am BIAB/single vessel so only really have the option to pull the tap apart each time.

I think I'll no-chill a batch tomorrow (belg pale ale with t58) and report back in a few weeks. I have another brand new, unused bunnings fermenter and tap which I'll just dose with boiling water, then star san and seal until I pour off the no-chill chilled wort into it.


I really appreciate the support of the site.


I used to be a bit snobby when I saw infection threads - like I take your point about technique Bizier but in now 8 going on 9 years of brewing this is the first time I've come across something as persistent as this (I have cleaned most of my brewery area and equipment with chlorine bleach, boiling water, then a sod perc/met mix, boiling water, star san...if it is in the equipment then I would suggest that it is the key to the next stage of human evolution and I should ingest it haha).

But this shit really is heartbreaking, mostly because the lesson that I will hopefully learn from this has yet to reveal itself and doesn't appear to be a simple thing like mash temp or ferment temp etc.

 

[manticle]

The bleach/boiling water/sod met clean was my suggested routine. Do this again, including your fridge
Boil up the kettle tap and any silicon hose in sodium percarb for 10 minutes, rinse, then starsan. Make sure there is no visible gunk in the thread - boiling SP solution again.
Buy a brand new willow cube and tap. Fill the cube with boiling sodium percarb solution, rinse, then starsan.

Brew, fill the cube in no chill style, lid on, make sure it's tight and not leaking.

When cool, sanitised scissors and enough fresh new yeast for the batch into the cube, lid on, backed off a couple of notches. Do not re-use yeast or make a starter.

Ferment. Any leaking krausen clean straight away without removing the lid and spray with starsan. Take any hydrometer samples from the tap (but minimise these) and spray the tap immediately with starsan.

This was essentially how I prevented a recurring infection. Doesn't give you the info as to what's caused it (but you have plenty of plants on your property and impressive facial hair) but at this point you just want to make beer.

Bottle half the batch, replace your keg lines and thoroughly clean the system and see if either bottled, kegged or both come out OK.

 

[manticle]

I mentioned not making a starter - one of the possible causes of my infection problem, i put down to the juice bottles I was using at the time. While juice bottles can and have been successfully used, I have had no problems since switching to erlenmeyer, boiling the starter wort in the erlenmeyer (clean, sanitised) and pitching from fresh packs. As suggested above though - just buy enough fresh yeast for this batch then work forwards (as opposed to changing one thing at a time - change everything then slowly incorporate back to usual methods one step at a time. Reverse elimination, hopefully bringing tasty batches of beer as you go.)

 

[Bridges]

Best of luck Lecterfan, don't let it beat you. Thanks to you and everyone who has contributed as a new AG brewer I have been reading this and it is a valuable resource for me as it suggests great ways I can improve my own cleaning regime.

 

[Yob]

Another thing to consider mate is those 2 piece taps, I recently pulled my kettle apart, something I dont do often enough, and I noticed s reasonable amount of shite in it even after a met/perc bath in boiling water, there are little joins in there against the wall/body that are hard to get at, giving serious thought to a 3 piece because of it, I've just assembled it again (after 3 x cleaning) and thought of you and my dumb luck thus far, if this started happening to me, the 2 piece would be the first thing to go.. Just a thought mate, best of luck tracking it down.

 

[MaltyHops]

Another thing to consider mate is those 2 piece taps, I recently pulled my kettle apart, something I dont do often enough, and I noticed s reasonable amount of shite in it even after a met/perc bath in boiling water, there are little joins in there against the wall/body that are hard to get at, giving serious thought to a 3 piece because of it, ...

Are you talking about 2-piece ballvalves and not being able to take them apart? (because they can be taken apart ... just need two big wrenches).

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