I'm Gassing Up A Recent Brew And...

[jkeysers]

I recently completed a new K&K brew and put it in the keg and in the fridge. Chilled it down to about 4 degrees and using Wortgames excellent chart for gassing up kegs, put the gas on at about 12-13psi. This is slightly higher than what Wortgames chart recommends, but I like my beer a little cold and fizzy. Last night I had a try of it after 4 days on the gas. It poured beautifully, with a pretty good head, but when I drank it, it was pretty flat.

The good head surprised me, as at the moment I'm running about 1.8m of 6mm line, so I thought because of that the beer would pour on the frothy side. (Eventually I will change to 3m of 4mm line). And as I said, if anything, the gas was a little higher than it should have been at that temperature, so I expected a fizzy beer. Now I'm worried. Does this mean I have a gas leak and it's not all getting into the beer? The kegs are freshly reconditioned, and I did do a quick check for leaks using soapy bubbles and couldn't really find anywhere that looked like gas was escaping. So I'm stumped.

Anyway, I know the gas is sposed to stay fairly regular, but after trying the beer, I turned the gas up to 14-15psi, and will try it again in a day or 2, but yeah, apart from that, I dont know what to do.

Anyone with ideas of what I might be doing wrong?

 

[devo]

I'd give it another few days, it should get better. I try not to tap a keg unless a week has passed.

 

[razz]

Devo is spot on, you need at least a week or two. The one problem you will face is once the beer is saturated it will foam too much for that length of 6mm line.

 

[jkeysers]

Hmmm, interesting. I was told, and I'd read on this site, that 3-4 days was enough time and then I could drink it. Bummer.

Does that mean it's not gonna be as good now i've tapped it? Should I stop drinking it for another week? Should I turn the gas back down to its orignal pressure of 12-13psi?

Man, I'm learning so much from this site, i'm so glad I found it. Thanks guys!

 

[Wortgames]

Thanks for the compliments ILC, glad it helped.

I'll second what Devo said - it can take quite a while for the carbonation to fully balance.

One thing to remember is that presumably, a keg of beer will carbonate from the top down. So the beer you drink (from the bottom of the keg) will be the least carbonated of the lot. Also, depending on what temperature the beer was when you started, remember that it could take an extra couple of days just for the beer to properly chill down to your 4C.

Remember too that the beer will carbonate more easily as you empty the keg - the proportion of headspace to beer changes significantly and this speeds up absorption. So you may find, by being impatient and naughty and screwing with your regulator, that the beer will be nicely carbonated in another couple of days, but then overshoot your desired level and you'll struggle with it for the rest of the keg.

Having said that, 15PSI at 4C should only give you about 2.8 volumes by my reckoning, which is probably fine by your taste and still within the general range for commercial lagers.

The length and diameter of the beer line won't really affect the 'frothiness' of the beer, they really just affect the serving resistance and therefore the speed of the pour. Obviously a really fast pour would be likely to trigger excess foaming (because of the sudden pressure drop when the beer exits the tap and also the turbulence created when it hits the glass), but generally speaking the amount of foam you will get is purely down to how much gas you have pushed into the beer and the head formation characteristics of the beer itself.

I'd say leave it at 15PSI, and try not to hit it too hard over the next week or so - but as you drink it you'll probably notice a subtle change in the carbonation level. If it does get a bit higher than you'd like then probably best to just live with it for the remainder of this keg but reduce the pressure a bit in the future.

 

[jkeysers]

Thanks WG. Sound advice as always. I will leave things as they are for now. I hope to pick up a fresh wort kit this weekend and start brewing that. And then in 7-10 days I can put it on the gas in the fridge next to this current keg. I've learned so much from this keg, so I can apply what I've learned to the next keg.

As for not hitting it too hard, well, I'll say how that goes. I can easily see myself breaking the rules on the weekend and getting stuck into it again on Sunday when the Grand Prix is on. I have no self restraint. haha.

 

[devo]

Thanks for the compliments ILC, glad it helped.

I'll second what Devo said - it can take quite a while for the carbonation to fully balance.

One thing to remember is that presumably, a keg of beer will carbonate from the top down. So the beer you drink (from the bottom of the keg) will be the least carbonated of the lot. Also, depending on what temperature the beer was when you started, remember that it could take an extra couple of days just for the beer to properly chill down to your 4C.

Remember too that the beer will carbonate more easily as you empty the keg - the proportion of headspace to beer changes significantly and this speeds up absorption. So you may find, by being impatient and naughty and screwing with your regulator, that the beer will be nicely carbonated in another couple of days, but then overshoot your desired level and you'll struggle with it for the rest of the keg.

Having said that, 15PSI at 4C should only give you about 2.8 volumes by my reckoning, which is probably fine by your taste and still within the general range for commercial lagers.

The length and diameter of the beer line won't really affect the 'frothiness' of the beer, they really just affect the serving resistance and therefore the speed of the pour. Obviously a really fast pour would be likely to trigger excess foaming (because of the sudden pressure drop when the beer exits the tap and also the turbulence created when it hits the glass), but generally speaking the amount of foam you will get is purely down to how much gas you have pushed into the beer and the head formation characteristics of the beer itself.

I'd say leave it at 15PSI, and try not to hit it too hard over the next week or so - but as you drink it you'll probably notice a subtle change in the carbonation level. If it does get a bit higher than you'd like then probably best to just live with it for the remainder of this keg but reduce the pressure a bit in the future.

It's like we are reading each others thoughts worty

 

[Wortgames]

It's like we are reading each others thoughts worty

Well, you know what they say - 'great minds drink alike...'

:beer:

 

[jkeysers]

UPDATE: I have had a few more beers again since I started this thread, although I havent really attacked the keg until tonight. I poured 2 jugs from it a couple of hours ago (after 11-12 days at 14psi and at 3-4oC), and still, it's pretty flat.

Actually it's kinda hard to describe. It pours with slightly too much head (but I think this is due to the short, thick line). It looks flat as a tack in the glass once the head dies down, but in the mouth it has a little bit of fizz to it. First I thought it may have been that my beer glasses got soap/detergent in them, but I'm sure its not that. It still seems undercarbonated to me. Surely after 11-12 days at what is probly slighlty too much gas pressure, my beer should be if anyting too fizzy?!

Could I have a leak? My gas bottle still feels pretty full.
Can tapping a keg too early cause problems like this? Or shouldnt it matter?
Should I give it a shake to try and get the gas right through? I do seem to be getting slight variations in carbonation from glass to glass and jug to jug. But I thought 12 days would have been more than enough to sort this out!

Please help! I got my first ever Fresh Wort Kit which should be ready to go on the gas in a few days and I want to get it right.

 

[mark_m]

UPDATE: I have had a few more beers again since I started this thread, although I havent really attacked the keg until tonight. I poured 2 jugs from it a couple of hours ago (after 11-12 days at 14psi and at 3-4oC), and still, it's pretty flat.

Actually it's kinda hard to describe. It pours with slightly too much head (but I think this is due to the short, thick line). It looks flat as a tack in the glass once the head dies down, but in the mouth it has a little bit of fizz to it. First I thought it may have been that my beer glasses got soap/detergent in them, but I'm sure its not that. It still seems undercarbonated to me. Surely after 11-12 days at what is probly slighlty too much gas pressure, my beer should be if anyting too fizzy?!

Could I have a leak? My gas bottle still feels pretty full.
Can tapping a keg too early cause problems like this? Or shouldnt it matter?
Should I give it a shake to try and get the gas right through? I do seem to be getting slight variations in carbonation from glass to glass and jug to jug. But I thought 12 days would have been more than enough to sort this out!

Please help! I got my first ever Fresh Wort Kit which should be ready to go on the gas in a few days and I want to get it right.

Without bringing too much science to the equation, i've been using the 23l squat kegs for a year or so now & find an easy rule of thumb is: once keg is cold (easy if you are c/c ing in a jerry can), hook up at 250 kpa, lay on side so gas inlet is submerged & rock as required for 3 minutes (rock 50x, wait for bubbling to cease, repeat). After 20 mins de gas & re gas @ 100kpa, will be drinkable @ this point for a lager/pale ale but will equalise nicely overnight.
This works on the assumption that system is balanced, i've found that 2.5m of 4mm line works nicely for tap or bronco.
Get your pressures right & balance up & the world is a happy place.
Cheers & Beers
Mark

 

[Wortgames]

Hi ILC,

If you are pouring too fast then gas will come out of solution when it hits the glass, causing foaming and leaving a flatter beer - which seems to be exactly what you're describing.

14psi at 3.5C should give you around 2.7 volumes of gas to start with. This is still not excessive for an average commercial lager, maybe you just like your beer to be a little more lively - in which case maybe you should aim for nearer 3 volumes (16-17 psi).

We are really only talking about fine-tuning here - if the thermometer in your fridge is a degree or two out that could be responsible for the difference, another possible cause is that your regulator gauge isn't spot on (you could try finding another local kegger and see if you can borrow his reg for a few minutes and see what it reckons you've got in the keg).

It's just a case of tweaking your system until you get the results you want, don't panic if it doesn't match the charts - the charts are really just a starting point to get you in the ballpark. Once you are close (as it sounds like you are) then let your experience be your guide.

 

[jkeysers]

Hmm. Another little thing I have learned. I had no idea the gas escapes when it froths up like that, but I guess it makes sense. Like shaking up a bottle of coke I guess. So the very thing making my beer flat is the same thing thats making it frothy when I pour it? The hose is too short and too thick.

Looks like I gotta get the new hose on ASAP. I need to find that piece that makes it fit to my tap. With the FWK almost done fermenting, looks like I better get a move on.

 

[FazerPete]

Or you could try a different method. Who has time to wait for weeks on end while the gas slowly trickles in and then have to adjust the pressure by 1 or 2 psi here and there. I put it on 300kpa for 36 hours and then pour at 40kpa and I haven't had a problem with it. I get perfect head size that lasts all the way through drinking it.

I know this probably breaks all the scientific rules but it works for me.

 

[razz]

Or you could try a different method. Who has time to wait for weeks on end while the gas slowly trickles in and then have to adjust the pressure by 1 or 2 psi here and there. I put it on 300kpa for 36 hours and then pour at 40kpa and I haven't had a problem with it. I get perfect head size that lasts all the way through drinking it.

I know this probably breaks all the scientific rules but it works for me.

Do you do this for the entire keg Fazerpete or just to get it carbed up ?

 

[FazerPete]

Do you do this for the entire keg Fazerpete or just to get it carbed up ?

I just do it for the initial carb up. I put the brew into the keg from the fermenter, put it in the fridge and wind the reg up to 300 kpa and leave it for 36 hours. After that I turn it down to a pouring pressure of around 40 kpa and leave it there until the keg is empty. I also turn the gas off at the bottle when I'm not drinking because I'm a bit paranoid about losing a cylinder.

It took a little trial and error to figure this out but I have no wastage and the head lasts all the way to the finish.

 

[jkeysers]

UPDATE No. 2: I poured myself another jug tonight. Was especially careful to pour it as tilted as possible to get minimal froth and head. I ended up with a jug with about an inch of head on it. Perfect. Poured myself a glass which came out of the freezer. Frothed up at first, but then settled nicely. Within 5 minutes the beer again looks flat as hell, both in the glass and the jug. (At first I thought it may have because of the froth up from pouring into a cold glass, but the jug did it too and it was at room temp).

In terms of taste the fizziness is pretty good, it just looks ordinary. What am I doing wrong? The glasses/jugs I used are free of detergent. I kept frothing to a minimum. What else can it be that makes my beer look like last weeks apple juice?

 

[paul]

When you pour the beer into a glass out of the freezer it'll froth up and release a lot of the gas in the beer so you wont get a true idea of the carbonation level. Try it with a glass at fridge temperature so you froth the beer up less, itll give you a better idea o nthe carbonation.

Adjust that bloody line length to get the right resistance so you pour steady. With the short 6mm line that your using your losing carbonation in the pour also dut to it pouring too fast. 3m of 5mm. Don't bother with trying 4 mm as its a bitch to get onto your nipples.

 

[Hargie]

....i think your problem may be the beer itself....many factors impact on the quality of head retension in beer and even the big boys don't know all of them , but some i have read about include ; protein content and structure in the raw barley & malt and the finished beer, malt modification,mashing regimes,hop utilization, alcohol content,use of adjuncts, use of clearing agents,infection, yeast etc etc...

....the only beer i've ever had a similar problem with , was i believe because i had a stupendously long protein rest during a mash, but that aint your answer as i see you brewed a K&K beer....does it have an overly thin mouthfeel??....maybe your beer is so fully attenuated
( fermented out to the shithouse, leaving no residual sugars) that the bubbles in the head cannot bind together and overcome surface tension...high alcohol beers often have quite poor head retension.....over attenuation can also be a sign of an infected beer....

..now , i'm nowhere near an expert but am learning as much as i can about how beer works and sometimes there's no one reason why a beer didn't come up to scratch ....

...a more dextrinous (less fermentable) wort would be my first guess, and the beauty of allgrain brewing is that you are responsible for and in control of just about every detail of your wort.


I think you'll find you won't have the same problem with your fresh wort kit.....aerate well and look after your ferm temps....whatever you do keep brewing...

...oh yeah....i use 3 mtrs of 5mm beer line....perfect.

 

[Wortgames]

So when you say it 'looks' flat as hell, you just mean no head? There's enough carbonation in the beer itself?

If this is the case then it isn't your carbonation procedure. Something is causing the head to 'die' prematurely.

The main culprits for this, aside from just the composition of the beer itself, are oil and detergent. What sort of lubricant are you using in your keg posts?

If you are sure that oil and detergent are not getting near your beer, then it is simply a lack of the relevant proteins in the brew to hold a decent head. As Hargie has stated, this could be due to the mash schedule in an AG wort, or a lack of malt (eg using a high proportion of sugar), or excessive fermentation (highly unlikely unless you delierately added dry beer enzyme).

Another possible culprit is hop oils, if you added any extra hops that aren't being boiled they could be having a detrimental effect on head retention. Normally hops get boiled in the kettle which probably doesn't happen with extract brewing.

More than likely it is a combination of more than one of these things, so you just need to try and eliminate as many as possible. A fresh wort kit should hold a decent head, so if it doesn't you should be suspicious of your glassware or your draught system.

How are you cleaning your glasses?

You should give them a good hot wash in a decent dishwashing detergent, followed by a really thorough cold rinse before drying with a spotlessly clean cloth. If you haven't already, try doing this with a couple of good glasses (not nasty ones that have been attacked by the dishwasher for a few years) and see if that makes any difference.

Also make sure you don't have any grease on your lips. If you wear lipstick try using a straw

 

[jkeysers]

Thanks guys.
Hargie - I must confess to not understanding pretty much all of what you said! haha. It was a basic K&K brew, so I wasn't expecting award winning beer, but yeah, some head would be nice. Overly thin mouthfeel? I'm not really too sure. It has fizz in it that you can feel in the mouth, but you just can't see much fizz in the glass/jug. Either in the form of head, or as bubbles rising from the bottom.

WG - Yeah, no real head to speak of. I get froth at the start as I pour it from the keg, but its gone within minutes, if not less. As for lubricating the keg posts, am I gonna sound like an idiot if I say that I haven't lubricated anything?! I wasn't aware I had to. I received this whole thing as a gift a few months ago, and have been learning on my own since then. What do I have to do? What should I be using?

As far as glasses and jugs go, I'm using ones that I "borrowed" from the pub. It's possible they have been through a dishwasher more than a few times. They don't look old, but that don't mean much I guess. After use, I just hot water rinse, wipe, rinse again then dry and put in the fridge. No soap or detergent is used.

No lipstick as yet. But ya never know. haha.