I Think I Overdid The Wheat And The Aromas...

[Scruffy]

Well the recipe's below - can you tell me why it tastes like bad cider!! And it looks like this picture i found off the internet (only a bit less see through!)...

8.00 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 76.19 %
1.50 kg Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 14.29 %
0.60 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.71 %
0.20 kg Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 1.90 %
0.20 kg Carared (20.0 SRM) Grain 1.90 %
20.00 gm Warrior [16.40 %] (90 min) Hops 24.6 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 9.5 IBU
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (45 min) Hops 5.5 IBU
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40 %] (45 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (45 min) Hops 7.1 IBU
16.00 gm Super Alpha [12.20 %] (30 min) Hops 10.5 IBU
5.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40 %] (15 min) Hops 2.0 IBU
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.8 IBU
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (0 min)
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min)
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40 %] (0 min)
1.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
5.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min)
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter 1500 ml] Yeast-Ale

30 litres, started about 1080, finishing around now @ 1018 (which I'm happy with) - I guess I shouldn't worry, and if I leave it for months it'll just get better... but I'm not convinced!
Too much wheat, too little bittering, and probably too young... and I left it overnight after mashing because of 'an emergency'... the pale is actually Maris Otter.

Edit - formatting.

 

[Screwtop]

Big beer! I don't think 6% is too much wheat and 4% crystal is not a problem. Mash overnight................................mmmmmm at what temp did it sit at?

Maybe Acetaldehyde, think you might have pushed the fermentation a little?

Screwy

 

[Scruffy]

Big beer! I don't think 6% is too much wheat and 4% crystal is not a problem. Mash overnight................................mmmmmm at what temp did it sit at?

I mashed for 90, pulled the bag out and left the liquid in the pot overnight, must've dropped to about 22-26? Then boiled (good rolling boil) in the morning for about 2 hours...

Maybe Acetaldehyde, think you might have pushed the fermentation a little?

Screwy

And may have crept over 20 an all. Oh well, here come the hangovers!!!

Let's see what it turns into!

Thanks for your suggestion, hope it's just the BIG hops settling out!!

 

[Scruffy]

Gratuitous bump... -_-

 

[Fourstar]

It could be the hopping rates, but i'd be shocked if thats the case. The only hop i'd point my finger at would be the NS but there are only small amounts of it.

Hmm, It could well be acetaldehyde or some other fermentation pre-cursor. For it to be cider like i'd think the ferment would have to be pushing up past 24-26. That would also have to be during the growth phaze too. Maybe you got a small lactic ferment going on before boiling?

The only other thing i can think of (and may be the most probabale) is if your mash started hot and was falling gradually overnight the alpha amylase may have broke up alot of the long chain sugars which left the beta amalyases to chew away more sugars than usual and thinned the body too much. @ 77% Attenuation thats on the upper end too.

 

[katzke]

No need to bump.

Not much of an IIPA for our American Standards but for you it probably fits.

Never said at what temp you mashed at. Never said how long it has been setting. Hope this is not one of those one-week wonder beers I see sometimes on this site. I would expect it to go lower then 1.018 unless you did something in the mash to make it end higher. I have not done a big beer for a while and use US-05 but I would expect 1056 to go lower then that by a few points.

I doubt you have enough wheat in it to get much if any haze. The picture you copied looks more like a nice Wit with about half of the grain raw Wheat and a nice hazy wheat yeast.

Can not comment on the taste, as I have not used those hops in combination.

 

[Scruffy]

Ok, more detail; It mashed at 66C (150F save you the conv. Katzke), for 90 minutes. It then cooled overnight to ambient in Brissie at the mo - 24C (75F), then quickly brought to the boil (Rambo burner) and boiled for 2 hours (good rolling etc). It was then slow chilled in a cube - leaving a lot of trub in the pot (more than i'm used to...). It started at 1080 the next day, and 10 days later (now) it's around 1018. I've used Amarillo, Cascade and Nelson Sauvin before - but not all together!) (and the Warrior was left over from a very bitter bitter just brewed), so I know to expect citrus and passion fruit... but tasting just now, there's a cidery offness, the alcohol tastes OK - not too hot. But it looks like this out the fermenter;




You might just make out some floury sediment forming at the bottom of the glass...

 

[Fourstar]

i'd say its still finishing up somewhat looking at the haze. If you can, ramp the temp a little to 24 if its not there already and wait another 24-48 hours. It looks like you have some flocculation issues or the yeasties are just finishing the process up afer throwing some acetaldehyde. Give it a little more time.

 

[kabooby]

The mash may have even started to sour overnight. Could be contributing a tartness found in ciders.

The beers is very cloudy. May need to finish fermenting properly.

Kabooby

 

[katzke]

Ok, more detail; It mashed at 66C (150F save you the conv. Katzke), for 90 minutes. It then cooled overnight to ambient in Brissie at the mo - 24C (75F), then quickly brought to the boil (Rambo burner) and boiled for 2 hours (good rolling etc). It was then slow chilled in a cube - leaving a lot of trub in the pot (more than i'm used to...). It started at 1080 the next day, and 10 days later (now) it's around 1018. I've used Amarillo, Cascade and Nelson Sauvin before - but not all together!) (and the Warrior was left over from a very bitter bitter just brewed), so I know to expect citrus and passion fruit... but tasting just now, there's a cidery offness, the alcohol tastes OK - not too hot. But it looks like this out the fermenter;

View attachment 32589


You might just make out some floury sediment forming at the bottom of the glass...

Well if my brain is working right you mashed low (for me anyway), and you left it set with no mashout so the enzymes could have kept working.

Even after letting it set, boiling should have killed any bugs.

I would bet it is not done and needs to set another week or 10 days. Looks like yeast to me. Some of my US-05 brews take a bit extra to clear.

I had a Maris Otter and fuggles beer that I hated out of the fermentor. After a month it was drinkable although I would say not a favorite. I would give this some time. I have been reading up on NZ hops and the Nelson Sauvin could be playing with you on taste. The Warrior should be a good clean bittering hop as I recall.

Plus I see you BIAB. For such a big beer you will have extra gunk.

Just a though, next time if you need to let it set make sure to do at least a mash out. I am thinking that mashout temps are the same for pasteurization temps so you should kill any bugs. That or bring it to a boil and then shut it down. I have read of several people shutting down a boil and leaving the kettle covered over night with great success.

Unless you got a fast wild bug in the kettle for the time it set I do not see anything you did that could have ruined it. Only time will tell for sure. With the extra grain and hops I would let it set as long as possible before deciding to dump it.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Leaving unboiled wort sit overnight is asking for trouble, as it cools the chances of spoilage increase and while I realize it was boiled the next day and that would have supposedly killed any spoilage organisms the boil won't have eradicated the off flavours/aromas produced by them.
I think I agree with kabooby, your wort has started to sour.

Andrew

 

[enoch]

It is a big beer that is still fermenting at day 10, hasn't been crash chilled and hasn't settled out yet. I would almost be more worried if it was crystal clear at this stage.
If it tastes a bit cidery its probably because it still has stuff going on and will take a few weeks post ferment to come together.
Or am I missing something?

 

[Scruffy]

Forgot to mention; there was a 78C (172F) 'mash out' for 20 minutes - during which time I got 'that call' and had to leave it. So it cooled from then on... 14 hours later, boil.
Thanks for all the support & suggestions! I might leave it for another week at least (- at 20/22C - around 70F), then maybe crash chill?... Secondary? 'Borrow' gravity filter off Ross?
I reckon you're all right, so far my brews have been quite tolerant of my cavalier brewing techniques, and this brew is a little ambitious for a guy who just knocks out the odd pommy style bitter'!

 

[reviled]

2 things I can note here

1 - being there is NOT ENOUGH HOPS for a IIPA, not even close, you need more hops than usual to shine through the high alc and extra residual sweetness...

2 - The mash went sour/rancid overnight and youve extracted off flavours and even tho you boiled the off flavours were allready present in the wort so all youve done by boiling is concentrating them...

 

[sinkas]

looks like an infected mess to me,

 

[katzke]

Your mashout should have killed any bugs. That temp and time is good enough for Canada and the highest requirement for ice cream mix. That has eggs in it so can have E-Coli.

I think you just need a few weeks. The general rule is the bigger or more flavors in a beer the longer you wait. A wheat beer or a OB can be ready in a week or 2. A stout will benefit with a few months. A barley Wine may need a year or longer.

Just purely my opinion.

 

[daemon]

I'm certainly no expert when it comes to high gravity beers but I would have thought at 1.5L starter would be very under-pitched. If you have a look at the MrMalty calc (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html) it suggests somewhere around 2 packs of yeast and a 5L starter.

 

[blackbock]

Maybe it's my imagination but I think I can see a layer of crud on the surface as well. Either incomplete fermentation, infection or both <_

In cases like this, we learn what not to repeat..

 

[HoppingMad]

Yep agree with Daemon, high gravity beers tend to need two packs of yeast - you may have gone too low on the cell count and worked the little buggers too hard.

Seems like a combo of issues:

- Underpitching
- The leaving overnight issue which may have introduced some bad flavours. Cider flavours sounds like acetyl.
- Nelson Sauvin & Amarillo Clash. I have brewed with these two hops together and they tend to fight each other in flavour. It may take you a few weeks cellar time for this to smooth out and then you'll know what you're dealing with beyond the hops.

Either that or you might want skip the cellar time and drink it while it tastes like cider and not something truly horrid!

Hopper.

 

[Scruffy]

looks like an infected mess to me,

Cool. But I'm more optimistic...

This is the same glass after a couple of hours in the fridge:



See, all the white at the bottom? And after sipping the cooler brew, I'm maybe overreacting...

Maybe I shouldn't have interfered so early!