How to stop a brew stalling (and then going bad)

[pablo_h]

I've never had a good batch of homebrew, given up.
Years ago I threw a lot of time and money into it, eg buying special yeasts, upping the sanitation game, new fermenters, had a spare fridge and temp control, bought 15l and 30l stainless steel pots and preboiled everything - was looking into all grain anyway. Stopped trying about 5 years ago since I had to move into a smaller house and lose my fridge, heated cabinet and space in general.
It just doesn't work for me, just like everything else I've tried my hand at, and hobby and life in general.

Anyway... (E: moved house again and have some more room)
Thought I'd just chuck a coopers ale with some dextrose. After a week it just stalled at S.G. 1020. I was running an a/c in a spare room so I couldn't let it stall and waste power for nothing so I paniced and added more yeast. At the time the wort tasted like sweet malt - nothing wrong with it taste wise.
Anyway it cranks up again and I think I was too late, the original yeast died out and something else maybe took over?
A week later it's down to SG 1010 but now tastes like crap, like all the 30 odd attempts I've made at home brewing over the past 20 years

So to the point, how do I find/make super yeast that doesn't flake out?
I swear that's my problem. Otherwise I'm just cursed just like everything in the garden dies with my blackthumb. No idea otherwise as new fermenters, new taps, using starsan and every other trick in the book hasn't worked for me in the past, so just concentrating on the yeast for now.
Problem: I have next to no money LOL.

 

[Charst]

stalling happens to everyone from time to time. Yeast need things beyond the sugars in your Wort, ie right temp, right population of yeast, enough oxygen, zinc and Free amino nitrogen. Without knowing your process the best suggestion I can make is jump online and search for John palmers "how to brew". It's the best foundation brewing book around and the old version is free on his site.

It'll have a better description of yeast requirements and steps you need to take to make a good beer than anyone here will give you.

 

[Charst]

Ps I've been brewing for years and have a batch of stout right now that tasted amazing early and now stalled at 10.20 and taste sour twang at the end. **** beer happens.

 

[Blind Dog]

**** beer happens.

For a reason, you just need to find the reason.

 

[Charst]

Haha yeah agreed but in this case I had problems with wort pH way low, tried adjusting on fly with chalk. first starter never took off (half a washed cake), reboiled, fresh starter was sluggish (other half of cake), added US-05, computer died so can't look up recipe to see expected attenuation. Suspect it's done after forced ferment test. Smells great taste **** and its holding up my ferment fridge. Chuck time.

 

[pablo_h]

stalling happens to everyone from time to time. Yeast need things beyond the sugars in your Wort, ie right temp, right population of yeast, enough oxygen, zinc and Free amino nitrogen. Without knowing your process the best suggestion I can make is jump online and search for John palmers "how to brew". It's the best foundation brewing book around and the old version is free on his site.

It'll have a better description of yeast requirements and steps you need to take to make a good beer than anyone here will give you.

I don't need to search Palmers book, it's on my bookshelf. Like I said before, I went way over the deep end into brewing years ago trying everything to help.
That said, I haven't looked at it for 5-6 years...

 

[Yob]

Are you letting them age at all? The flavours develop over time, this could be a part of the issue if drinking too young?

How much dextrose are you adding? Too much can affect the taste, are you adding dry malt? Hops?

What temperature are you fermenting at?

An active starter can help get a brew moving again.

 

[burrster]

Hi Pablo,
If you could give us a comprehensive run down of your most recent method, including all ingredients(and yeast) and OG readings, (and all the things Yob mentioned),it will be easier to offer advice.
thanks

 

[wynnum1]

All grain may be worth looking at it seems to ferment better and using smaller brews easier to experiment .

 

[Coodgee]

You need to spend some time face to face with an experienced brewer. Where are you located. It's probably just some little thing that isn't always obvious to everyone from reading a book. The other aspect is taste expectations. You need an experienced brewer to taste what you rate add tasting poor. Maybe it's normal and just needs time.

 

[kaiserben]

Thought I'd just chuck a coopers ale with some dextrose. After a week it just stalled at S.G. 1020. I was running an a/c in a spare room so I couldn't let it stall and waste power for nothing so I paniced and added more yeast. At the time the wort tasted like sweet malt - nothing wrong with it taste wise.
Anyway it cranks up again and I think I was too late, the original yeast died out and something else maybe took over?
A week later it's down to SG 1010 but now tastes like crap, like all the 30 odd attempts I've made at home brewing over the past 20 years

"After a week it just stalled at 1.020": Does that mean you took a couple of samples a couple of days apart and the gravity didn't move? Because otherwise, IMO there's a chance that's quite normal being at 1.020 after 7 days and it was still doing its thing and needs more time. (I usually leave for 3 weeks).

Depending on what you did when introducing that extra lot of yeast there's a slight risk that you also introduced an infection.

Also that tasting at 2 weeks means the beer is still very green.

And nearly all of those canned extracts taste like crap IMO, but I guess that's more a matter of opinion.

 

[Coodgee]

Some of the cans can make some fantastic beer if treated right and aged sufficiently. I've never been a fan of the coopers real ale though. The lager can be quite nice.

 

[pcmfisher]

I know it is a bit hard to tell trying samples out of your fermenter, but a tin + 1kg of dextrose is never going to taste anything like beer.

Get some decent ingredients.

 

[pablo_h]

I don't really appreciate some of the comments since I posted this in kits and extracts subforum and mentioned I have pretty much no money.
I mean really? what was your point?
I stuffed around with more advanced brewing (have the grain and hops in my freezer, pots, converted eskies to prove it) This is not my problem.
For some reason I have a basic problem that goes wrong like the rest of my life.
To be honest I did a test beer run to test my theory, if I was going to spend money it would be on a still condenser really.

Also I only used 500g dex as it was just a test to confirm how bad at brewing I am.
Beers I like: coopers pale and sparkling, also weihenstephaner. IE I like beer with fruity yeast esters. This is the most important thing to me. Not a hops fan - rather drink cider, spirits etc. I'm only into beer for the yeast compound flavours.
Not a fan of IPAs and american pale ales that every man and his dog started a micro to brew.
Besides the rest, I like stouts low on hops and high on roasted grain with coffee-ish flavours.

Anyway, to answer earlier replies, This batch stalled at the same SG for 5 days, 1020.
My messing with it after that no doubt brought in an infection, either from shaking (airlock and grommet was old and suspect), or stirring.
Nothing wrong with original sanitizing, flavours were right until it stalled.

2nd yeast pitched nothing wrong with it either (reused coopers bottled beer yeast, and the stubby I re-cultured it in to this day still smells fine - just warmed yeast flavours)

Problem was/is with the yeast at the original pitching. Also right now I have just bought new grommets, seals, airlocks, tap washers, lid orings. Was tempted to buy WL cali yeast or some type of liquid yeast, but wasn't sure. Is the coopers kit dry yeast still the best bet with ~24-25C fermenting temps? Any warm weather yeast recommendations to someone that likes the the banana/passionfruit esters?

Trying new batch of kit/extract tomorrow. Doing yeast differently too. Previously I would just stir in, or proof with sugared/dex/malt water.
This time I rehydrated with plain cooled boiled water only first for a few hours, before adding into a bottle with sugar/dex.
Never seen a krausen so huge/fast when proofing yeast! If I've never had yeast behave like that, then I think my theory of lacklustre yeast in my brews seems confirmed.
The bit in Palmer book about rehydrating in plain water because they can't handle sugar when too dry seems right. My PE bottle with the kit yeast and a bit of dex seems close to exploding! Never seen that with any other way I prepped dry yeast.

E:
Anyway, now this yeast has gone crazy in the bottle, should I leave it as is overnight*? Or chuck it in the fridge, pour off the liquid down the sink and just keep the slurry to add to my next brew?

* Right now boiling 400g LDME, 500g dex, and a coopers lager kit in a covered stockpot; going to switch off the heat and let it cool overnight.

 

[passedpawn]

• Your problem is likely sanitation. Hopefully you have starsan or similar. Boil everything that goes into the fermentor - water, hops (if applicable), dextrose. Of course, not the yeast
• Don't open that fermentor for 2 weeks. PERIOD.
• Throw away the kit yeast. Get some S-05. I suggest rehydrating dry yeast, but it's not necessary.
• After 2 weeks at normal ale fermentation temps, it will be done and at final gravity.

In 200 batches I've only had one stalled fermentation. That was due to very high mash temps. I cured that in the fermentor with amylase enzymes. Agitating the fermentor and adding yeast nutrient is IMO pointless, and adding more yeast is not likely to work (but might if the original yeast was coopers dry and you are adding something else )

I've had a couple spoiled beers. Doing things like adding a dirty sliced beet or accidentally adding a bunch of maggots will get you there quickly. Sanitizing everything religiously, then keeping your nose out of the fermentor till bottling/kegging time will maximize your success rate.

I haven't made an extract in 10 years, but the mechanics once the wort is made are the same for all brewers.

 

[passedpawn]

Also, stop re-using yeast until you get rid of your problems. If it's not obvious, you can't make good beer if you use yeast from a bad batch. I suggest you just cut open the yeast packet, dump right into your fermentor, close it and walk away.

I do understand how appealing the idea of re-using yeast is. I do it myself. But you're not saving any $ by making bad batches of beer.

 

[passedpawn]

DON'T PROOF YOUR YEAST. You're just asking for problems. If the packet is a reputable brand and it's not 10 years old, it's going to be OK.

 

[Dozer71]

This time I rehydrated with plain cooled boiled water only first for a few hours, before adding into a bottle with sugar/dex.
Never seen a krausen so huge/fast when proofing yeast! If I've never had yeast behave like that, then I think my theory of lacklustre yeast in my brews seems confirmed.
The bit in Palmer book about rehydrating in plain water because they can't handle sugar when too dry seems right. My PE bottle with the kit yeast and a bit of dex seems close to exploding! Never seen that with any other way I prepped dry yeast.

Shouldn't start yeast off on dex/sugar as I understand they get used to the simple sugars and are lazier/less efficient with the complex sugars from the malt. If anything make a 1.04 wort with LDME. Can rehydrate the yeast in 100ml of water for up to 30 mins, no need to go longer.

Right now boiling 400g LDME, 500g dex, and a coopers lager kit in a covered stockpot; going to switch off the heat and let it cool overnight.

LDME and dex don't need boiling, only dissolving in hot water, unless doing a hop addition and the LDME would be enough. The coopers kit does not need boiling as has already been done. Leaving to stand overnight can only lead to infection, best to pitch the yeast straight away when at the right temp.

 

[Dae Tripper]

Seems your method keeps you wide open for an infection. Try the following

Starsan your fermenter with a spray bottle eveywhere. 1.6ml to 1L water.
Get 5L of water on the stove to boil.
Put approx 15L of cold filtered water in your fermenter.
Add all extact and dex to water on stove and remove from heat, mix well. Add to fermenter from height for a good mix. Top up to 23L.
Check temp is under 28 degrees, add good dry yeast.
Sounds like you might want to use wb-06 or danstar belle sasion for big yeast charactor and they suit your ferment temps better.
Leave it for 2 weeks or if using sasion at least 3 weeks. Seriously just don't touch it the yeast don't need coaching.
This should take all of 20 min max any longer and you will have more chance of infection. During the brewing keep the lid of the fermentor on unless your adding something. If anything touches the wort it must have been sprayed with starsan for 1 min minimum, that means your spoon too.

That is the simple way as I believe you are over complicating it and making a mistake somewhere. Think about doing a brew with someone who is making good extract brews locally. Hopefully someone will offer.
Hope that helps.

 

[Dae Tripper]

And keep good care of the dry yeasts. They belong in the fridge.

 

[Mattrox]

Shouldn't start yeast off on dex/sugar as I understand they get used to the simple sugars and are lazier/less efficient with the complex sugars from the malt. If anything make a 1.04 wort with LDME. Can rehydrate the yeast in 100ml of water for up to 30 mins, no need to go longer.

Dex I agree with but sugar (sucrose) is no more simple than maltose. Both are disaccharides and need hydrolysis for yeast to utilise.

There might be other benefits malt over sugar given malt will have nutrients and minerals that help yeast stay healthy.

 

[gone brewing]

Maybe you could find an experienced brewer who is willing to help you out with this (and their beer is OK).

You buy 2 sets of ingredients. You make up one set and the other brewer does the other. Prepare the ingredients and ferment them in the same way (temperature and time). Then you compare results. Could be a guide as to what is going on.

 

[Mattrox]

I did a bit of reading about yeast utilizing sugars. There are different pathways that yeasts use to get the sugars inside glucose/fructose, sucrose, maltose, maltriose. There are competing processes and yeast shift the method depending on what is available. They can shift, but I guess what we observe is a lag time if we use a different solution of sugars in the culture than is in the wort. But the yeast can easily change mechanisms of sugar uptake.


Of note, but off topic, was a bit about at the end of fermentation when there are residual sugars. Fructose is detectable at lower concentrations than glucose. When the yeast has given up fermenting, if there is a large amount of sucrose in the wort, the residual fructose from it is detected as a sweetness. If there are glucose molecules at the same concentrations we don't perceive it to be so sweet.

 

[pablo_h]

The process I mentioned before is not my usual, it's what I'm changing to fix a problem.
When I started out, it was just like the old directions. No boiling sugars, no proofing yeast. Just kit, and kilo of sugar, boiled water to mix/dissolve, top up with tap water, sprinkle with kit dried yeast, stir in with sanitized spoon. This method failed for me, never trying it again, don't suggest it.

Then I though it was the sugar, so I switched first to dextrose sugar, then coopers BEs, then buying liquid or dry malts. Didn't fix the problem.
Then I started boiling all the above first, didn't help.
Then I thought it was water, so preboiled water too, didn't help.
Then I thought I was not cleaning properly, so I bought starsan.
Then I thought it may be scratches and whatnot that even starsan couldn't fix, so bought new fermenters.
Then I thought it was the stirring, so went back to just sprinkling the dry yeast on top - not rehydrating/culturing, not stirring or touching the yeast much at all. That didn't help so I thought buy better yeast. I know I tried so4 and so5 during winter months years ago, I think these brews worked out, so this is why I started this thread saying yeast problem maybe. Not sure if they're worth using now in hot weather where the lowest temp I can do is 26C though, so this thread is about working with coopers yeast.
This current method I posted earlier was just a new thing I'm trying, not what I've always done.

Anyway, back to the present.
I'm running all three fermenters I have right now, if running an a/c over the hot days may as well get more value for money...
Ones got coopers ginger beer so forget that for now
The other two have coopers lager.
Both were started 10hrs ago. One with the preboiled wort and precultured yeast, the other just has had boiled water and rehydrated yeast (has seen no dex or sugar prior to pitching).

The preboiled/cultured fermenter has gone bonkers, krausen up to the airlock (that's not really a good thing, messy to clean up afterwards etc I know), but never had a yeast start so strongly so that's a good sign at least (Edit: I hope. I hope it's not just going to burn out early on the dextrose and stall at the malt - anyway, we shall see if a quick start is better than a lslow and steady burn the other fermenter has). Not much foam in the other fermenter, just barely starting to bubble now while the other one started bubbling 6 hours ago.

We'll see if any stall, and what they come out like flavour-wise.

 

[pablo_h]

Update.
I was a bit worried because the airlock stopped bubbling on the above first brew after 2 days
I know I shouldn't have messed with it, but I needed to know.
Took a S.G. sample and it was already at 1010

Just going to leave it now as the cool weather in Perth means I can just sit back and not worry about cooling/temp control (besides shutting the window at night) at least until thurs/fri anyway. So I'll let it finish off, clean up and clear up undisturbed for a while.

Was a bit susprised how bitter/dry it tasted. I know that's because I used some dex, not all malt. But I'm just glad I didn't do a toucan now as I'm not a fan of overly bitter beer as the hops extract in the kit seems pretty strong*
Speaking of which, the brew that I added no sugar to the yeast (in order to get a starter/jump start), is still slowly going. That yeast was rehydrated too though - just slower to start and looks like it's going to be slower to finish - I hope it wasn't underpitched.

Prevously because all of my problems, beers that "semi-worked"came out too sweet as they stalled, so that's why I switched back from all malt to half dex.
Next time I'll go all malt.

*E: anyone found the coopers lager kit is more bitter than coopers ale?
I know the ale that failed never tasted this bitter (from the can as I did sample both for curiosity). Maybe something has been wrong with the kits I have bought in the past if the ale was supposed to be more bitter than this lager kit.

 

[pablo_h]

The winner is:
Not using dex to prime yeast.
Of course not rehydrating dried yeast is the ultimate loser, because that never worked for me, at all, ever.
The primed/stated/cultured kit cooper lager got to 1010 SG in two days, but stuck there. Better than an infected brew stuck at 1020 though.
The rehydrated only kit yeast took way longer (and is still going at ~1008). Going to dry hop it with goldings for ***** and giggles.

Rehydrate your yeast!
E: and maybe in the future get temp control and better yeast (or become an autumn only brewer)

 

[bevan]

I've been doing extract brews for the last two years and thing that improved my beer was controlling the fermentation temp. I have an stc-1000 that I set to 20 deg (I've only brewed ales), controls the fridge and heat pad. Since doing this my beers have been tasting awesome!
I don't use the yeast supplied with the can. I use decent dry yeasts (mostly safale from my local HBS) and just throw them into the wort when it's below 24 deg (usually 22 deg) giving it a good stir. As I normal make up my wort at night I'm not to sure how long it takes to get going but by the morning it's bubbling gently and takes about 10/14 days to fully ferment out (due to working shift work it might then sit there for another 4/6 days before I bottle it).
The first brew I did (long before ferment temp control) I did in my laundry and had on a heat pad (advise from HBS) on. Was mid winter in Melbourne. The ferment temp got up to 28 deg and stalled. I ended up putting in more yeast and got the temp down to get going again, beer was so so in taste. Since then I haven't had any stalling by keeping my temps under 24 deg. Before having the fridge (and being banished from the laundry by the minister for war/finance because of the odd exploding bottle) I'd regulate ferment temp by opening or closing the laundry door, ah the good old days!
I think if you can keep the ferment temp down you should get good beers.
I'm sure there are more experienced people on the forum who can give you great advice but for me temperature control was the big improver!
I also think your being a bit harsh on yourself.
Cheers
Bevan