How Fast Do You Drain Your Mash Tun?

[mika]

From what I've read/been told mashout only needs to happen for between 5 & 10 minutes.

Reason I wanted Zwickel to stay out of the stirrers question is he's stirring in a closed tun with the stirrer mounted thru the lid. Closed system and less temp drop from those of use who have to remove the lid and stir with the mash paddle, potentially dropping the temp of the mash while doing so.

I haven't noticed an increase in efficiency with the mashout, but I'll have to give Screwy's method a run and see if draining slower for batch sparging helps. I was intending to give fly sparging a go anyway and see whether it picks the efficiency up.

 

[matti]

I like the the long mash 90 minutes and stir every 20 minutes to get better conversion "Idea".

To solely concentrate on the draining of the "goodies" and how fast you can do it:
It all depends how "freely" those sugars are available.

Without touching everything that "it" depends on, all post are seemingly correct.

In a very simple set up providing the conversion "HAS Happened".

1.When you raise temperature for a mash out it is only to stop the enzymatic activity to reserve the profile of the beer and get those Sugars ready for a rinse. This can be done by addition, immersion heater or direct heat.

2.Recirculation is grand but not necessary. Adding appropriate "adjusted" water to raise temperature and still keeping the ph well below 6 will assist this. Give a stir and check temp and rest for 5-10 min.

3. Rinse as fast as you want, it won't matter Batch-sparging.

4. Add more "adjusted water and rest again for 10 minutes.

5 rinse.

If you are pedantic you may check you second runnings for pH so you don't' extract tannins. If you kept the temperature around 77-78 you'd be sweet assssss.

Swedes 1 kronor worth of advice :icon_drunk:

 

[chiller]

Afternoon all,

I haven't had awesome efficiency and wondering what I can do to improve. I am using an esky with a false bottom made of fine stainless mesh. I find that this drains really quickly if I let it (a few minutes max). I mash with about 2.8:1 water to grain. After draining, I batch sparge at 77C, stir well, sit for 10 minutes, then drain again. I've been getting 60% this way. Would draining any slower after mashing or sparging make a difference to extraction of sugars? Any other improvements I could make?

Tim for any system to be repeatably accurate you need to know the following.

[1] the exact -- to the ml of water your system needs for a brew day

[2] the losses in the various stages.

[3] The actual evapouration rate. If you brew outside this will vary.

[4] the exact amount of sparge water needed to give you the exact boil volume to give you the final gravity beer you need. No more -- no less.

If you sparge with too much water you will have too much in the kettle, too low gravity and if not enough -- well too high a gravity.

[5] All of the above impact on your efficiency.

I purchased a new mill and the efficiency has dropped but it is consistent because I know accurately all of the above.

AND if you need an extra 500 grams of grain to make your beer it doesn't matter at all as long as every time you make a beer it is repeatable yield wise. On the other hand if you had low efficiency as a commercial brewer it would be a cause for much head scratching and bottom line examination.

On batch sparging, I use two loads of water -- grain bed to be about 75c so the HLT may have to be mid to high 80's or more to reach that for a mash out. The temperature of the grain bed on the second sparge can drop quite a bit so the water can often be at 90c to get back to the 75c sparge temp.

I stir each batch then let it sit for 5 - 10 minutes then recirculated until the run off is "lump" free and reasonably clear. It is important to recirculate at the same tap opening as the actual runoff. Recirculation will help wash some of the trapped sugars free.

Run off as fast as you have recirculated.

Steve

 

[Screwtop]

Hi Tim - I assume you are adjusting your SG reading for temp?

I do a continuous sparge in an esky with a steel mesh FB and get 73% efficiency with a stiffer mash than yours. I sparge quite slowly too, about 1L/minute. I don't do a mash out, but I do heat my sparge water to 76 degrees after my recirc.

For those that do a mash out, how long do you let the mash sit at the higher temp before recirc and sparge? I'm interested in giving this a go to increase my efficiency, but can't find any info on the ideal duration of a mash out.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

Julez, I always include a MO step, 77C for 10 - 15 min. Find starting out at 77C it's easier to maintain grainbed temp then. Have all your remaining water heated to 95C. Stir the mash lightly at end of Sacc rest BEFORE adding MO water for grainbed temp of 77C, rest for 10 min and lauter, then set the drain to the kettle/grant at 1L/min and start the run in from the HLT at 1L/min also. Depending on losses in your system, by the time the water runs from your HLT and is distributed on the top of the mash via some method your grainbed should maintain a temp around 77C for the sparge. Relax have a homebrew or get on AHB for an hour. Sometimes I start the kettle burner at 40 min and catch the final runings in a grant, this goes to the kettle once the mash is fully drained.

Cheers

Screwy

 

[blackbock]

Tim F

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this obvious point yet: Are you draining as much liquid as possible from the tun?

I batch sparge, and have found that no matter how slowly and thoroughly I drain, once I start the boil there is usually a couple more litres of wort which has formed at the bottom of the mash tun. I can always gain some more good wort by collecting this and adding it to the rest. I haven't found any problem with this method, and it does help with the numbers, especially if your batch size is looking like it shrunk.

 

[hughman666]

Tim F

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this obvious point yet: Are you draining as much liquid as possible from the tun?

I batch sparge, and have found that no matter how slowly and thoroughly I drain, once I start the boil there is usually a couple more litres of wort which has formed at the bottom of the mash tun. I can always gain some more good wort by collecting this and adding it to the rest. I haven't found any problem with this method, and it does help with the numbers, especially if your batch size is looking like it shrunk.

this is why i got a false bottom. i found with braid i was leaving behind approx 2L of liquid, now the amount is negligible.

 

[kevnlis]

1.When you raise temperature for a mash out it is only to stop the enzymatic activity to reserve the profile of the beer and get those Sugars ready for a rinse. This can be done by addition, immersion heater or direct heat.

Again I will point out that it also reduces viscosity and sticking particles together, thereby improving the fluidity of the mash, and allowing a person to use a finer crush that would be possible when spargin at lower temps. Not to mention getting a clearer run off, in less time, with more sugars dissolved in it.

 

[Tim F]

Great advice guys, thanks. I think what I will start doing is look at the crush and maybe ask the brewshop for finer, stir during the mash, do a mashout, double check that I am hitting 77 in the grain bed when sparging, revisit my sparge volume calcs (I did a spreadsheet for this but I think I'm overlooking something as I always end up with a lower boil volume than expected), make sure I'm fully draining the sparge water (maybe draining more slowly would help with this) and also consider a second batch sparge. I'll let you know how it goes next weekend!

 

[Wrenny]

G'day Tim,

I agree with the early posters (Mika and Insight). When I first started grinding my own grain, I was getting efficiency of about 60%. After a few brews, I tightened up the Marga and started getting 70-75%. On my latest brew I used 5.2 stabaliser for the first time and got over 80%. Pretty happy with that.

As for sparging methods, personally I think they only make quite a small difference (maybe 5%). However I don't know which way is better. And I'm not accurate enough to find out for sure by experimenting. I Mash Out in the high seventies, batch sparge and just dump it all as fast as it will go. I'm not saying that this is the best way to go, just the way that I do it at the moment. May change in the future.


Unfortunately, I don't think your LHBS will be too keen to change the crush for you, as it is pretty fiddley.

Cheers,
Wrenny

 

[chiller]

Great advice guys, thanks. I think what I will start doing is look at the crush and maybe ask the brewshop for finer, stir during the mash, do a mashout, double check that I am hitting 77 in the grain bed when sparging, revisit my sparge volume calcs (I did a spreadsheet for this but I think I'm overlooking something as I always end up with a lower boil volume than expected), make sure I'm fully draining the sparge water (maybe draining more slowly would help with this) and also consider a second batch sparge. I'll let you know how it goes next weekend!

Tim what water are you using for the mash? If rainwater, you may not have enough calcium to drive the mash to the 5 - 5.4 range and this can have an effect on the mash conversion. Minimum for Ales is about 50 - 60 ppm and for a 20 litre rainwater mash [assuming it is just rainwater] 5 grams of Calcium Sulphate - Gypsum, will get you close to the calcium figure needed. Calcium Chloride can also be used [different quantity] to provide the calcium but the chloride will, if not in excess provide a softer mouth feel. Generally Calcium Sulphate for Ales and Calcium Chloride for Lagers. The Sulphate and Chloride have differing impacts on hop flavour as well as the perceived and actual bitterness.

Steve