Hop Flavour And Aroma?

[sean83]

Hi All,

Just put down my third all grain brew, BIAB method, and have some queries on my hop aroma and flavour at the end. My recipe was as follows;


3 kg Light Munich grain
1 kg Wheat grain
250g CaraMunich grain

Mash Schedule: 60min @ 65 C


FOR THE BOIL:
10g Nelson Sauvin hop pellets (11.5%AA) For Bittering
(Boil for 60min 17 IBU)


1 tsp Irish moss or Whirl Floc (boil for 15min)


15g Galaxy hop pellets (13.4 % AA) For Flavour/Aroma
(Boil for 2min 5 IBU)


Dry Hopped with 10g Galaxy, 10g Nelson sauvin hop pellets after 4 - 5 days in the fermenter.
OG was 1048 and FG was 1010

The beer has been racked to a secondary on the 8th day with finings and is now sitting in the fridge to condition until the weekend. which will have been nearly 14 days.

Before I racked my beer though my hydrometer sample had next to know noticeable hop aromas and had a dry fruity smell (not banana like). More citrusy I guess. I used White Labs Californian Ale yeast, this was the first time I have used a liquid yeast as well. The sample was not terrible to taste possibly a little too like grain but still very drinkable - it just didn't jump out with noticeable hop aroma or flavour. I guess the easy response is to increase the late hop additions, however this was a similar hop schedule to my first BIAB using Galaxy and Simcoe and that had a much better hop profile.

Any advice would be great.

Cheers Sean

 

[Deebo]

I'm no expert (only done 4 BIAB) but I would guess the munich malt is overpowering the hops somewhat, as you say probably add a bit more (did you use the same malt in your first biab?)

 

[sean83]

I'm no expert (only done 4 BIAB) but I would guess the munich malt is overpowering the hops somewhat, as you say probably add a bit more (did you use the same malt in your first biab?)

No my first recipe had no munich malt. I was trying for a similar beer to Fat Yak, not he same just similar. The appearance and flavour are 'similar' from what I can tell from the hydro samples just not the overall hop profile.

Would it be worth while dry hopping more into the secondary before kegging?

Sean

 

[kocken42]

From what I can see, you are getting very little flavour from your hop additions as you only have a bittering and aroma add.

In the future put in a hop at 15 minutes if you want more hop flavour...

Also, the light munich will contribute a fair bit more maltiness than other base malts, so the added maltiness will need to be counteracted by more hops.

One other variable is the yeast...different yeasts work in different ways. Some make the hops character more pronounced, others create fruitiness, whilst some are just there to make alcohol Find out what you want to achieve from your beer, and then choose the yeast to fit.

 

[sean83]

From what I can see, you are getting very little flavour from your hop additions as you only have a bittering and aroma add.

In the future put in a hop at 15 minutes if you want more hop flavour...

Also, the light munich will contribute a fair bit more maltiness than other base malts, so the added maltiness will need to be counteracted by more hops.

One other variable is the yeast...different yeasts work in different ways. Some make the hops character more pronounced, others create fruitiness, whilst some are just there to make alcohol Find out what you want to achieve from your beer, and then choose the yeast to fit.

Thanks Little Pony,

Yeah I dont understand how I forgot a 15 or 10 min addition, I would have normally hopped 10 grams of both galaxy and nelson saurian then - probably would have helped.

Cheers Sean

 

[kocken42]

Thanks Little Pony,

Yeah I dont understand how I forgot a 15 or 10 min addition, I would have normally hopped 10 grams of both galaxy and nelson saurian then - probably would have helped.

Cheers Sean

Hahaha oh well, live and learn. I'm sure it will still be a good beer none-the-less, and with age and carbonation I regularly find hop aroma to become more present.

 

[jbowers]

Fat Yak is not a 'hoppy' beer. It certainly doesn't have a typical galaxy aroma or flavour.

I reckon go cascade next time, and use a little more. Maybe try 30 grams of cascade as a late addition. Heck, you might even end up with something better than Fat Yak...

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Galaxy and Nelson :icon_drool2:

Back OT. I've had massive experience with Nelson (holds a permanent place in my fridge) and if you look at my Lord Nelson Citra Sauvin Ale as a guide, you'll notice that I had only a very small bitterness addition at 30 minutes, and the mothertruckload of hops at 10 minutes.

Massive aroma, but even then, Caramunich does keep this in check.

The big thing with Nelson, is that what it does at 30-40 minutes is (and this is anecdotally, I have no substantive proof otherwise), is equivalent to the bitterness additions of many other hops (higher or lower AA%) at 60 minutes. It can get a bit harsh at 60 if you overdo it, so I find personally that it's far better to put enough at 30 minutes, and then compensate IBU in the 10-15 minute additions.

The other thing is that you haven't mentioned the yeast. If it is Nottingham, it can strip some aroma out of the beer. I prefer US05 for these big hoppy beers, keeping Notts for lager-like and drier beers (works great in a dry stout).

Hope this helps.

Goomba

 

[Hutcho]

Are you chilling or no-chilling ? This can make a difference as well, the convention is if you are no-chilling then you
will lose effectiveness from your late addition hops i have read from other discussions here.

Hutcho

 

[sean83]

Hey Hutcho

I have been no chilling and have read the same that you lose a lot of the late hop additions due to the heat still being present in the wort however I didn't get this drama the last two times.

Goomba I will keep that in mind with Nelson I got a bunch of it in the fridge now so will be using it in my next brew cheers mate.

Sean

Edit also Goomba I used a White Labs Californian Ale liquid yeast not sure if this helps or tells what strain it is. I thought that was the strain of yeast.

 

[Bribie G]

Are you chilling or no-chilling ? This can make a difference as well, the convention is if you are no-chilling then you
will lose effectiveness from your late addition hops i have read from other discussions here.

Hutcho

Seeing as you are no chilling, then I'd recommend just using your bittering hops in the boil, then run into the cube.
When you are ready to pitch, then pour about 3L of wort out of the cube into a stockpot
Then do your 15 min and 5 min and flame out additions in the stockpot
Cover tightly and cool rapidly in a cold water bath

Pour the contents of the stockpot (strain through a sanitised kitchen sieve if using flowers) into the fermenter plus the rest of the cube and pitch yeast immediately.
That will short-circuit the hop flavour/aroma problem that you can get with no chilling.

Argon's method, virtually the same, is to actually chill the cube right down to about 6 overnight then do the boil and pour the cold cube and the boiling hop wort into the fermenter.

Either or.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

According to White Labs, it accentuates hop flavour.

So my answer would be 1. No chill and 2. Quanties and times of hops. I don't no-chill, so you'll need to adjust my times to allow for this.

I do sometimes dry hop with Nelson (last one, currently cold conditioning after 1 week in the fermenter). Aroma is very pungent, and I don't get grassy flavours (though I'd like to).

Goomba

 

[Hutcho]

I now use Bribie G's method :icon_cheers: of late hop additions as i always no chill and have found i do now get better hop aroma and taste from my beers

Hutcho

 

[chunckious]

Seeing as you are no chilling, then I'd recommend just using your bittering hops in the boil, then run into the cube.
When you are ready to pitch, then pour about 3L of wort out of the cube into a stockpot
Then do your 15 min and 5 min and flame out additions in the stockpot
Cover tightly and cool rapidly in a cold water bath

Pour the contents of the stockpot (strain through a sanitised kitchen sieve if using flowers) into the fermenter plus the rest of the cube and pitch yeast immediately.
That will short-circuit the hop flavour/aroma problem that you can get with no chilling.

Argon's method, virtually the same, is to actually chill the cube right down to about 6 overnight then do the boil and pour the cold cube and the boiling hop wort into the fermenter.

Either or.

So where would your draw the line Bribie regarding bittering hops?
Anything after "xx" mins, put into a 3L stockpot boil.
Thanks in advance mate.

 

[sean83]

Thanks Guys,

Yep found Argon's method and can understand why it would be a better way to go. Cheers Bribie.

As little pony said - live and learn. Hopefully it will turn out alright, got all my ingredients to make an Amarillo Ale so will make sure my late hop additions are done differently this time

Cheers Sean

 

[sean83]

Hey All,

Just a quick update for those that were interested, Have legged and forced carbed this brew using the Ross method (so I could have a pint as quick as possible). This would have to be the best beer I have ever made. The hop aroma is definitely showing through now I think I just had to let it cold condition a little bit. I dare say I could get more aroma and hop flavours by following the advice given in this thread, but this is still an extremely drinkable beer.

It has excellent head retention and mouth feel. A great malty flavour with some distinct nelson saurian. hops bitterness. I am not sure if I would want to up the hop schedule to much as it isn't overly bitter, however as was early stated it could have some better late hop additions just to round out the flavour a bit more. Cascade would also be a great alternative to Galaxy - however Galaxy is my favourite hop so I am not complaining.

I will definitely make this again - just not sure if I really want to change it too much just next time. Thanks for the interest now I am able to brew the next one - so much beer so little time.

Sean

 

[sim]

This would have to be the best beer I have ever made. The hop aroma is definitely showing through now I think I just had to let it cold condition a little bit. I dare say I could get more aroma and hop flavours by following the advice given in this thread, but this is still an extremely drinkable beer.

Glad to hear it. As jBowers said actually it isnt that much of a hoppy beer. a simple beer hits the spot ay.


sim