home made candy sugar

[lael]

Hey techno,

I do 3x290F with tsp of dap each time once you hit maillard temps. From memory around 240F. Drop water in to cool after sitting at 290F for a few mins. Invert with lemon juice to start by maintaining inverting temp for 15mins before going further. It makes the difference between sugar that crystallises and sugar that stays fluid.

My fave so far is a blend of organic raw and white and palm sugars at vari5ous timings

 

[technobabble66]

Hey lael, thanks for replying with that description!
Have you tried that process using an additional lime/base/etc (~ when you add the DAP) to alkalise the mix?
If so/not, why (/not)?

Palm sugar, hey? Did you ever try date powder/sugar? (I suspect the date is not so good if the Belgians don't use it). Have you tried pure brown or Demerara or muscavado?

 

[barls]

i cheated a little bit with the special b wort i added.
I've got some date sugar for next time.
i didn't add anything after i did all the reading where dap breaks down in to a base and also supplies the amino acid proteins.

 

[lael]

How did the special b wort one turn out Barls?

I made some date sugar after reading about it after I made the batches - haven't used it yet though and it has turned into a lump of slightly wet rock. Ziplocks aren't thick enough. I should have vac sealed it.

The reading I did said the same thing - dap breaks down into all the precursors you need. I'm not sure that the extra dap is needed. Try a batch with and without it and see what you think. The lemon is noticeable in the flavour - not lemony but a slight fresh tang - so I would be reluctant to add more and more of it.

I wanted muscavado or turbinado - the difference is they are made direct from the cane and not refined and then have molasses added back to them like 'raw' sugar and apparently even brown sugar is like that. But it was really hard to locate when I was doing it. It has since become more available.

I found the key for a dark candi was the triple heat and making sure you don't go above 295 - it gets acrid real fast above there. And do a final step up to 240 to get a nice thick syrup that will stay liquid (if inverted properly).

I thought white sugar gave more pronounced vanilla / red wine flavours in the mid conversion ranges.

Organic raw gave amazing choc and rummy and plum flavours.

Its slightly messy and time consuming to do - but fun. You do need to taste as you go - the range of flavours the syrup goes through is incredible.

 

[barls]

it was really tasty, pretty dark as you can see by the pics. lots of dark fruit notes.

 

[Bribie G]

The cheap DAP would probably have some heavy metals.

Please explain. You seem to be living in fear of heavy metals in lawn fertiliser, glucose syrup, erm.. everything h34r: h34r: h34r:

I'm getting into Candi Syrup myself (bought 500 ml from HBHB to try it) so would appreciate the exact mechanism as to heavy metals that would likely turn me glowing green.

 

[Mardoo]

Did you ever try date powder/sugar? (I suspect the date is not so good if the Belgians don't use it). Have you tried pure brown or Demerara or muscavado?

I know that candisyrup.com uses date sugar in their D-180.

 

[technobabble66]

@ barls and lael, thanks v much for the further info!
I'd def noticed your use of special b, barls, and was also v keen to hear how it went. I'd considered using either Amber or pale/med Crystal. Didn't even consider going the whole hog with spec b!
Yeah, the DAP is def an alkalising agent, however I'm not sure if it'd be strong enough to sufficiently raise the pH by itself. So I thought we'd need to add another alkalising agent, like sodium/calcium/potassium hydroxide as well as the DAP.

So is it fair to say no one on AHB has tried the process I outlined above: use acid to invert, then use DAP *plus* Sodium/calcium hydroxide etc ??

Those results from different sugars sound v interesting. And tasty! :lol:

Thanks mardoo - didn't know candisyrup use date sugar. Good to know!

And yes, it definitely sounds like I need to try a few different techniques and determine which is best for me!

EDIT: Fwiw, from Wikipedia's entry on DAP:
"The average pH in solution is 7.5–8"
In water I assume, so might be different in this syrup solution.

 

[technobabble66]

Quick shopping expedition:


Gotta luv local Asian/Arabic grocers!!
Lots of experimenting on the horizon :lol:
.... Just gotta get some more DAP now...

 

[Adr_0]

Try some online body building supplies for specific amino acids, eg alanine.

I did a clear syrup with a touch of citric and alanine, in the oven for about 30min at 90-95°C. I did this because it's simple, economic and has good flavour.

I wouldn't dare try darks though...

 

[barls]

one thing i found was add the second sugar at the end of the first cool down as it got a bit acrid in the first attempt. the second attempt was not as bitter.

 

[technobabble66]

Bombs Away!!

Started the first trial run. Probably will only have time for the first boring bit - inverting the sugar.

0.45kg Sucrose
1 cup water
1/2 tsp citric acid
Bring to a light boil. boil for 30mins.

Maybe for tonight, the next step is adding
1/2 tsp DAP
1/2 tsp Lye
Raise to funky temps - aiming for ~285°C for a bit.

 

[technobabble66]

The start

Then after 30mins

 

[technobabble66]

Quick update.
The first inversion step went well, though I probably kept it going for a few too many minutes after my 30mins was up. It firmed up to a stiff "liquid" by the next day with maybe a bit too much colour.


So last night I did the 2nd step, adding
1/2 tsp Lye (potassium and sodium carbonate mix) and
1/2 tsp DAP, plus
~1/4 cup water.
Then heating to 130*c

Took about 20-30mins to achieve the target temp.
This is half way. Love that red hue!


Took it off the heat when it hit 130*c, let it cool a bit, then thought what the hell and added another 1/2 tsp each of DAP and Lye water then heated it back up to 125*c.
Allowed it to cool to ~100*c, then poured it out onto a piece of foil on a plate


Wasn't sure whether it'd worked or not so I dissolved a bit in water then a little with beer. In water it tasted like hint of toffee water. In beer it tasted like a hint of rich caramel flavour.
Seemed positive.
However, I tested the pH of some in water and discovered it was ~5.5 pH. This made me wonder if I'd not alkalized sufficiently.
Long story short I did several tests of differing amounts of citric acid to lye, to either neutralize of reach alkalinity (~pH9), and discovered I need 3 times the amount of lye. Namely 1.5 tsp lye to the original 1/2 tsp citric acid to reach a pH of 9.2.

So basically I'll have another crack at it over the next night or 2 with more Lye and see if I get a noticeably different richer result.

 

[technobabble66]

I maybe should add the reason for concern with the pH is that, as per some of the previous posters, the Maillard reactions are suppressed in acidic conditions and are enhanced in alkaline conditions.
So if my candi syrup is producing pH5.5 when dissolved, I'm assuming it remained acidic during the caramelization step and subsequently just carbonized, ie: burned, rather than produced the Maillard products that I was aiming for.

Happy to be corrected on this if anyone knows better, but it seems a reasonable assumption to me.

 

[technobabble66]

Once more into the breach.
Starting with 500g sugar, 50:50 white and dark (ie: not raw or brown).
Just starting the inversion:

It already looks and tastes good without doing anything! Can't wait to see the results of the 2 candying steps [emoji6]

 

[barls]

looks good. i found the candying stages really concentrate the flavours.
my next one will be 600g white. 300 extra dark and 100 palm

 

[AJS2154]

I had a crack at making some candi syrup this afternoon and did not realise there was an ongoing discussion on AHB. If I had known that I would have taken some photos. My apologies.

I made 950g of cane sugar and 1 cup water and about 1/4 teaspoon citric acid.

I approached it with some caution as I didn't really know how fast the mixture would heat up and didnt want to burn it. On my first round the sugar changed to a light golden colour. I added water and cooled it. It smelled like granny smith apples. I was unhappy with something that smelled like that so decided to have another go. I reheated it and added some more citric acid. This time it went to a beautiful ruby red colour. I then allowed it to cool a little and just held it at a constant temp for maybe 15 minutes. It gradually became dark and I stopped it.

My mix tastes like golden syrup initially, but then after a while it develops a very pleasant sort of a slight roasty flavour. Very nice.

I got started beacuse I want to add candi syrup to some of the recipes contained in the new Bronzed Brews book. Looking forward to messing around until I create some chocolate and coffee flavours.

I will more carefully document my processes in the future. Thanks for your efforts to date, great reads.

All the best, Anthony

 

[technobabble66]

@barls - yeah, i've got all sorts of sugary stuff to play with - palm, date, etc. Keen to get experimenting. I just need a Belgian Red Strong Ale recipe now!

@AJS2154 - are you using an alkalising agent (like Sodium Hydroxide/carbonate) and an amino acid source (like DAP)?

PS: Just learned boil overs can very easily occur as it's coming to the boil - just like wort! :unsure:

 

[technobabble66]

After the above mentioned boil-over, i had lost 50-100ml.
So i added ~1/6 tsp DAP, then tested the pH and discovered the syrup was ~pH5.5.
Added increments of Lye water to hit pH9+, totalling another ~2 tsp of Lye. This all meant i'd added several times the previously indicated amount of alkalising agent (NB: this could be as my Lye is more dilute than i expected).
Just thought it might be worth mentioning, to indicate that perhaps the pH of the syrup needs to be tested prior to heating for the caramelisation step to ensure we get the Maillard reactions, and not carbonisation, occurring.

Anyway, i continued through the process to hit ~135°C. Let the temp drop a bit, mixed in another 1/4 cup of water, then reheated to 135°C again. Currently letting it cool down.
Unfortunately, it seems to have a slightly DAP/ammonia smell and taste to it. Not sure if this is right, or if it indicates i added too much DAP or Lye. I might try another batch soon, using less DAP and using however much Lye is required to hit pH9, then making sure no over-boils occur. FWIW, it seemed like as it boiled, it was gradually boiling off the ammonia (& DAP); or rather, it was gradually converting to whatever in the syrup. The amount of DAP i added should be more to suit the "Dark Amber" version of Candi syrup, which is achieved at ~143°C, so i may've simply fallen short of this and really just needed to hit a higher temp to "consume" the DAP/ammonia.

FWIW, the recipe used today was:
250g White sugar
250g Dark sugar
1 cup water
1/2 tsp citric acid
Heated to boil for 30mins, then allowed to cool (had to go to dinner)
1 tsp DAP
1/2 cup water
1 3/4 tsp Lye Water
(boil over)
2 tsp Lye water
1/6 tsp DAP
Heated to 135°C, then taken off heat
Slowly added 1/4 cup water
Heated back to 135°C, then allowed to cool
------

So next time, i'll go 3/4 tsp DAP & try to be more precise with the Lye addition to hit ~pH9. See if that alters the smell/taste i'm detecting.
FWIW, this version in which i ensured the syrup was alkaline during the caramelising step didn't seem to have the burnt tones of the previous batch.

Also, fwiw, after everything was completed i dissolved a little syrup into water to test the pH, and it came up as roughly pH5.5. So no worry with alkalising any wort/beer it's added to !
It does make me wonder though how long it stays alkaline after i've added all this lye. In which case, am i wasting my time with trying to hit pH9 or do i need to add incremental amounts of lye, etc??

While we're speculating: I'm also not sure about using Dark sugar. I'm sure it's great for certain results, but i'm not sure if i'm a fan of the molassesy flavours it brings. I'm after caramel and fruity plum flavours. I'm not sure Dark sugar or molasses starting flavours will get me this in a beer. TBH, given i've not fermented any of this yet, i'm just trying to guess really! I think the Dark sugar would be great in a Dark Strong to get the rummy flavours, but maybe not what i'm aiming for.