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home made candy sugar

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barls

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just about to finish a batch of number 5 from here
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114837
smells much awesome at the moment
i ran out of white sugar so its 700g white and 200g extra dark with 3 teaspoons of dap.
I've been using the liquid from 200g of special b that was steeped and strained and made up to a litre.
only using 500ml of it this time but will knock out a batch of 100% white tomorrow after i get some more sugar.
anyone else has a recipe for this that they use all the time.
 

MastersBrewery

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I tried once failed but enjoyed making the mess! Lael has had some success and done several batches. He has gone into some detail on this in one of the threads just can't find it. A pm might get you pointed in the right direction.
 

technobabble66

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Hey barls, where'd you get the DAP from? Pivot, bunnings? Or food grade from somewhere?
Keen to hear how this goes - I'm looking at doing a Leffe clone & a few heavier Belgians that'd needs this.
 

lael

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I was able to get a kilo from country brewer by calling and negotiating a price. It is super cheap in large quantities, but I'm sure they move it slowly, so ended up being around 13/kg from memory.

Another forum member was working in the wine industry and offered to send me some - so ppl interested in larger quantities for, eg, a bulk buy... ;)
Might start there.
 

Mardoo

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There's a couple cracker threads on here on making it. On the phone so can't find them ATM.
 

barls

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so i ended up brewing with mine yesterday.
i made a nice little grain base then added the sugar and here some before and after pics.
IMG_1741.jpg
the colour of the syrup
IMG_1742.jpg
colour before adding the syrup
IMG_1743.jpg
colour after adding
IMG_1744.jpg
colour of the wort after added
 

technobabble66

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Hey barls. Looks great!! So the syrup ended up as that red-ish brown colour? How'd it tast before going into the wort? And how did the wort taste before and after the addition?

What particular process did you go with?
DAP + calcium hydroxide?
Straight sugar as the base, or go with brown sugar/golden syrup/muscavado/etc, or try boiled down wort?
 

wynnum1

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technobabble66 said:
Hey barls, where'd you get the DAP from? Pivot, bunnings? Or food grade from somewhere?
Keen to hear how this goes - I'm looking at doing a Leffe clone & a few heavier Belgians that'd needs this.
The cheap DAP would probably have some heavy metals.
 

barls

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from the first post

barls said:
just about to finish a batch of number 5 from here
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114837
smells much awesome at the moment
i ran out of white sugar so its 700g white and 200g extra dark with 3 teaspoons of dap.
I've been using the liquid from 200g of special b that was steeped and strained and made up to a litre.
only using 500ml of it this time but will knock out a batch of 100% white tomorrow after i get some more sugar.
anyone else has a recipe for this that they use all the time.
second batch was the same but with the brown added with the liquid from the special b at the second stage cooking.

the taste was a good dried fruit note with a slight caramel note.
the beer after was awesome I'm looking for ward to fermenting this one out.
 

technobabble66

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Yeah, I suspect something like the wyeast yeast nutrient is probably the best option.
Any better ideas?
It seems like we're really after amino acids or proteins to make this candi syrup.
The yeast nutrient is ok for this but surely there should be better or purer form of oligopeptides?
 

barls

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i used dap. it smells horrible as i breaks down but gives such a nice flavour although the second cook makes a huge difference,
 

technobabble66

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Been doing a bit more reading on this over the last couple of weeks.

So barls, did you go with using any lime, etc to alkalise the syrup as you were heating it? (as well as using DAP, of course)

From the reading i've covered, the way to go seems to be like that described in Ryan Brews (as per the link in maggot brain's post above (#8)), or in a link in the thread Lael mentions in his post above (#9)
i.e.: using something to alkalise the mix as you start to heat it, like slaked lime (calcium hydroxide).

I'm undecided as to what is the better technique.
Using DAP/yeast nutrient makes sense & seems to fit the chemistry the best.
Alkalising this mix also seems to make sense & best fit the chemistry - Maillard reactions occur best under alkaline conditions, and i'm not sure if the DAP/Yeast nutrient would be enough to raise the pH sufficiently.
The real question in my mind is whether you do an initial step using acid, before adding the DAP/Nutrient + Alkalising agent. The point of this is to invert the sugar - ie: split the sucrose/maltose into glucose & fructose, or at least some of it. This also seems to make the best sense in terms of the chemistry - you need reducing sugars (i.e.: glucose/fructose) to participate in the Maillard reactions. Heat by itself will do a bit of this, but an acid greatly improves the rate/yield. What convinced me to do this step is that it's reported from a few sources that the Belgians use Hydrochloric acid (plus a base/alkaliser, plus amino acid or DAP/Yeast Nutrient) in their process.
Link is here of one of the sources, and the entry is near the bottom. The important bit is:
"Hi Dennis! Great work here. Reminds me of what I went thru in 2004. Finally I went to Belgium and learned all there is to know(mostly) about Candi Sugar. Anyway, I think I can add a few things. 1- Candi Sugar starts with refined white sugar. Cane or Beet is used depending on current prices. 2- Sugar and water are heated with HCL to invert. Then a base is added and continued heating. Then the secret amino is added. When the solution is at the desired flavor and color it is poured into large metal containers and metal plates are lowered into the syrup. During cooling, rock sugar is formed on the plates. After the rock sugar plates are removed, the leftover syrup is mixed with invert syrup and sold as candi syrup. 3- The total percentage of caramelized syrup present in the candi syrup is aprox 4%. This accounts for high fermentability of the candi syrup and nice pleasing flavor. The base syrup is not so."
Interesting stuff.
(I've read through Lael's links, and i'm not sure which process he follows exactly, by the way.)

So i'm inclined to think the best process (amounts yet to be determined) is:
1) Mix sugar + water + acid. (sugar would probably be at least partly dark/muscavado, etc)
2) Heat for 30mins or so
3) Carefully add enough base/lime/lye to neutralise the acid and raise the pH to a high enough level. Start heating.
4) Add DAP/Nutrient.
5) Heat to chosen temp (e.g.: 280 or 290°C) and basically follow the regime in barls's OP


Thoughts??
Or is everyone already doing this and i'm just a bit slow? :unsure:

Another question is whether i could bypass the acid/inverting step by using either Lyle's Golden syrup or Glucose syrup as all or part of the sugar component. Again, thoughts?
Oh, and one last one, could egg white/albumin be used as the source of amino acids - it's mainly just protein, and should provide ample amino acids for the required Maillard reactions. The big issue here is whether the resulting Maillard compounds taste good or terrible.
 

Batz

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I've tried a few times and had a little success. Now I just buy it, I don't think it's really expensive compared with turning out good beer.
 

technobabble66

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Furry muff.
However, I guess i like a challenge :D

And i can't help but try to achieve a bargain - even if it costs me twice as much to do it :p

Edit: and, Batz, which failed methods did you use? just acid and heat?
 

Batz

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technobabble66 said:
Edit: and, Batz, which failed methods did you use? just acid and heat?
Perhaps, can't remember now. Lost interest, could be because I don't use big mobs of it. I think it's great making your own, I just can't be f$uck^d really.
 

barls

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I've almost got my yeast ready to ferment the batches.
 
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