Hoch Kurtz Mash - Anyone Had Success?

[Bribie G]

I recently got pointed to a great site "Braukaiser" who states that the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries, as they can use the modern malts without decoction and crank out a batch every two hours, whilst still getting a fuller bodied beer as opposed to an isothermal UK style infusion mash. There is still a decoction version but apparently the infusion version is the nutz von der duckz nowadays.



The site goes into it in detail (scroll down the page) but to summarise:

With our commonly used isothermal infusion mash we dough in and hold the mash at say 66.5 degrees for an hour or more, giving a 'sweet spot' for the Alpha and Beta Amylase to do their work.

With the Hochkurtz the idea is:

No need for a protein rest nowadays but three rests:

The maltose rest at around 63 degrees for half an hour
Raise to 70 degrees and do the dextrin rest for half an hour to complete starch conversion
Raise to 75 degrees for 20 mins for mashout

Raise the bag B)

I'm still a bit confused about the temperature going up and up and up, I thought that the idea was that the Alpha Amylase had to work first, then the Beta to chop the carb chains into shorter fermentable lengths to produce fermentables and at first glance the Hochkurtz seems to have it arse about - but Becks and Oettinger can't be wrong hey :icon_cheers:
Anyone do this? I have a shitload of pils and munich to get through as I'll be renewing all my malt stocks next week and I'm going to go for a Dunkel and see what happens.

:icon_drunk:

 

[Florian]

Hey Bribie,

I have used this method three times recently, after stumbling over the same site. A north german pils and a Dortmunder have just gone into lagering for at least another 4 weeks, and the third one, an aussie lager, is still cubed and yet to be fermented, so I have no results yet. I have however played with the times a bit, and at least in one of them extended the 63 degree rest to one hour. I have also added a protein rest between 52 and 55.
Zwickel also uses a very similar shedule for his pilseners.

Florian

 

[razz]

Good morning BribieG. I did a similar mas schedule last week for a Steam Ale. I got the schedule from Zwickel's blog, where he recommended a 35 degrees dough in followed by rests at 55, 63,72 and finally mashout at 76. I loosely followed this but doughed in at 55 not 35. Anyway, a couple of things happened that were different. When the mash got to 72 degrees it "loosened up" and began to float. Prior to this the mash was getting a little firm and I thought I would need to back off the flow through the herms. Secondly, I got another 4-5 percentage points on the preboil gravity. I can't tell you much more than that, I'm waiting to get home on Wednesday and pitch the dry hops. I won't be drinking the beer for at least a week.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes that 'loosening' is exactly what you get when you do a 'cereal mash' at 70 degrees. You cook up the rice or polenta to a stiff mush, add some dry base malt and start stirring and WHAM it goes to soup almost instantly. Those Alpha Amylase guys are awesome !

Firing up the urn now.

 

[dent]

This is pretty much the 'standard mash' I have configured on my herms - you can alter the fermentability by changing the ratio of time spent in beta/alpha amylase rest temperatures. Typical regime is 55 for 15, 63 for 45, 68 for 15, 77 for 20. Pretty happy with the malt profile from this, especially for lagers.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
GB

 

[Fourstar]

when i eventually get my new brewery setup, this will be the mash (or style of mash) i'll typically employ in most instances. Also, starting in the high protein rest range around 55 with a slow raise to low 60's will also get some limit dextrinase activity to break down the 1-6 links (branch points) when trying to achieve a 'drier' wort.

 

[drsmurto]

I have done this in the past for a Kolsch after reading the classic style book and IIRC it is mentioned in Noonans 'New Brewing Lager Beer'.

I still did a protein rest and as mentioned its a schedule zwickel advocates for pilsners.

50-52ish, 63, 70, 76-78. I normally do 20 mins at 50, 45 mins at 63, 30 mins at 70 and then 10 mins at mashout. Used boiling water for the infusions, mashed in at 50C very thick.

I use a similar schedule for decocting dunkels and pilsners.

 

[Bribie G]

Pleased to hear I'm not heading out into the wilderness here :lol:
It's going great with BIAB in the urn, hit 63 spot on (haven't done a fifties rest today) and after 30 mins had only lost a quarter of a degree, then hoisted the bag just clear of the element and raised up to just under 70 with one power-on then a bit more of a surge and it's on 71 lagged up again. I always raise to mashout that way so I already have a fairly precise feel for how long to raise per degree. It's also a good opportunity to give the mash a good pumping at each stage which can only be good for conversion and efficiency.

 

[Bribie G]

FWIW as you can see it's using up bits n bobs I've had in my bins but already tasting like malt heaven :icon_cheers:


4.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 65.47 %
1.00 kg Munich Malt - 20L (39.4 EBC) Grain 16.37 %
0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.9 EBC) Grain 8.18 %
0.30 kg Crystal Malt Dark (240.0 EBC) Grain 4.91 %
0.25 kg Caramel Wheat Malt (90.6 EBC) Grain 4.09 %
0.06 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 0.98 %
20.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.6 IBU
20.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50 %] (20 min) Hops 10.0 IBU
8.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 2.1 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.84 %
Bitterness: 28.7 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 34.5 EBC

 

[argon]

I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
GB

Are there any detrimental effects to holding the mashout longer than 10-20 minutes then?

I only ask 'cause the weekend Kolsch got away from me and left the mashout for 30 mins

 

[Zwickel]

I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
GB

Thats what I say too, 5 to 10 minute is enough. Any longer mash out extracts more tannins only.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Wolfy]

the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries

Is this anything more than just a fancy name for a step mash?
The most recent I did was the Klsch I just bottled (50, 61, 70, continuous sparge @80), would be much easier to do in a BIAB than my esky-mash tun I'm sure.

 

[~MikE]

Thats what I say too, 5 to 10 minute is enough. Any longer mash out extracts more tannins only.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

you'd only worry about tannins when sparging though, there wouldn't be any harm holding the mash at mashout temp for longer than 10mins.

 

[Zwickel]

the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries

this method is standard in Germany since more than 100 years :icon_cheers:

 

[dent]

I honestly cant see the reason to hold the mash out for so long, all the enzymes should be denatured within 10 mins.
GB

Those with deluxe mash stirrer systems can get away with less time

20 minutes probably is generous though.

 

[Bribie G]

this method is standard in Germany since more than 100 years :icon_cheers:

Now you tell us, and there I was thinking that if it wasn't a decoction mash then it didn't deserve to be called German :lol: About to order myself a shedload of Hallertau and Munich :icon_drunk:

 

[fraser_john]

I have done this several times for lagers and pilsners after reading this site some time last year. My final gravity has not come dow to where it should have though and may have to extend the first rest by about 15 minutes. Other than that, it is an easy mash regime and works well.

John

 

[Howlingdog]

Back in the nineties when BABBs used to get their bulk grain from Joe White Maltings at Redbank (before Whites refused to sell to us anymore), this was the mash schedule they recommended for their malt that they supplied to Castelmaine, Milton. So as Zwickel says not a new idea.

HD

 

[MHB]

I recently got pointed to a great site "Braukaiser" who states that the Hochkurtz (german High Short) infusion mash is now the preferred mash regime for german breweries, as they can use the modern malts without decoction and crank out a batch every two hours, whilst still getting a fuller bodied beer as opposed to an isothermal UK style infusion mash. There is still a decoction version but apparently the infusion version is the nutz von der duckz nowadays.

View attachment 40916

The site goes into it in detail (scroll down the page) but to summarise:

With our commonly used isothermal infusion mash we dough in and hold the mash at say 66.5 degrees for an hour or more, giving a 'sweet spot' for the Alpha and Beta Amylase to do their work.

With the Hochkurtz the idea is:

No need for a protein rest nowadays but three rests:

The maltose rest at around 63 degrees for half an hour
Raise to 70 degrees and do the dextrin rest for half an hour to complete starch conversion
Raise to 75 degrees for 20 mins for mashout

Raise the bag B)


I'm still a bit confused about the temperature going up and up and up, I thought that the idea was that the Alpha Amylase had to work first, then the Beta to chop the carb chains into shorter fermentable lengths to produce fermentables and at first glance the Hochkurtz seems to have it arse about - but Becks and Oettinger can't be wrong hey :icon_cheers:
Anyone do this? I have a shitload of pils and munich to get through as I'll be renewing all my malt stocks next week and I'm going to go for a Dunkel and see what happens.

:icon_drunk:

The common "English" language name for the process is "Programmed Infusion" and as some people have said its really the industry standard.
I do all my mashing this way (one of the reasons I brought myself a Braumeister), Not always that exact programme but variations on the theme.
One of my personal favourites is Pilsner Urquell, the mash program goes like this: -
20 min @ 50⁰C Mash in
20 min @ 60⁰C
30 min @ 65⁰C
20 min @ 70⁰C
10 min @ 78⁰C Mash out/Run off

For a BIAB brewer you probably can get 2 possibly 3 steps (depending on the size of your pot and how big the steps are) by mashing in at say 3:1 then making additions of boiling water and the calculations are pretty straight forward.
If you are set up to apply heat to the pot while the bag is in there then you can do whatever you like.

MHB