Help, I've Created A Monster!

[jeremy]

Hi all,

Brewed a Belgian ale a couple of weeks ago, and the thing will not stop dropping in gravity!

The grain bill was 80% JWM Pils, with the rest Wheat and some Melanoidin, sorry I dont have the recipe with me to give the fine detail. Anyway, it is a similar recipe to what I made not long ago, and I thought I would try to boost the gravity by putting in a kilo of over the counter dextrose. Now I haven't used dextrose for quite a while, but I was just really looking to get something similar to what i have brewed in the past, with a bit more alcohol to back it up.

Measured SG in the fermenter was 1.060 which was a little dissapointing, I was actually expecting higher, but then some water mis-measurement brought my volume up to 25L instead of the expected approx 22L, so I assumed this to be the culprit.

Anyway, long story short it is now at 1.005! Once it hit 1.010 I thought it was attenuating really well, but it wouldnt stop!

The yeast i used was the WYeast 1214 | Belgian Ale, attenuation 73-77%, flocullation medium-low. I have found that it is not flocculating very well, but its probably because its still fermenting!

As I am kegging, I was tempted to stop it early as its now about 7.15%abv which is plenty for me, but i would prefer it to clear a bit in secondary before i do (its already in secondary). I have added finings (shudder), any other advice? I dont think I could fit the fermenter in the fridge?

Any idea how it could have dropped so low? I have tested my hydro (and my eyes) several times, and i am confident its correct.

dex is scary stuff, if the beer drops much lower i could power my car with it.

Cheers,

 

[bindi]

What does it taste and smell like?

 

[jeremy]

Yeast!

Nah not too bad, it does have a bready / yeasty character i would like to drop out with the yeast if possible, but on the whole not too bad. No off flavours, I dont think it has an infection, an underlying alcohol warmth that i was expecting, but nothing harsh or overpowering. Apart from the breadiness it basically tastes like a belgian, the taste being dominated by the spice character from the yeast.

 

[Fourstar]

well you have 93% attenuation. Bizzare!

Mash Temp? Was you're OG reading at a standard hydro temp 20deg~? Dex has a high SG but im unsure how much it usually attenuates. If it equated for 20% of you're grain bill it may be the culprit for the low SG, much like
if you're using sucrose.

 

[jeremy]

Could be mash temp also, if this is able to influence the attenuation to this extent. This is the first brew in a while that hasn't been temperature controlled, and i suspect the first 2 or 3 days were brewed at around 24deg, and it dropped gravity points alarmingly quickly at the start of fermentation. Going to need to buy myself a fermentation fridge, my old fermentation fridge is being wasted on FOOD!

Forgot to add, that the reading i took last night would have been at approx 20 deg, but i will make sure tonight, good idea cheers!

 

[SJW]

My guess would be some type of infection.
You could crash chill to below 0, then keg with Gelatine to clear it, but it does sound sus.

Steve

 

[~MikE]

lemme guess, your last brew involved a stuck ferment, some champagne yeast, and only a quick rinse before brewing this?

 

[buttersd70]

agree that it sounds very sus indeed....
dextrose is around 92% (ish) fermentable, so going up to 1060 in 25L even using just dextrose for the full amount (and being totally hypothetical, obviously), 1005 is what it would reach at its absolute limit of attenuation.....

If the answer to ~mikes question is no, I'd have to agree with sjw that it is infected.

 

[jeremy]

Righto, will put it in the maybe category for an infection. Will keg, crash chill and add more finings tonight, no point in waiting for it to drop any further, if such a thing is possible...

Tastes ok, but then I don't suppose all infections give you an unpleasant taste.

Cheers for the input!

 

[kook]

I've experienced similarly high levels of attenuation with Belgian yeasts, especially when using temps around 24 as you described.

1214 isn't a great flocculator, so I'd expect it to take a while to clear out. I wouldn't personally use finings - low temperature and time will work better and also help to clean up some of the flavours from warmer fermentation.

93% doesn't sound at all out of the ordinary to me, especially considering such a large amount of dextrose. Unless you have other reasons to suspect an infection?

edit:

"at its absolute limit of attenuation....." - Butters, the figures given by the yeast manufacturers are a guide. It's well known that some of the Belgian yeasts can attenuate far above their quoted guide range. A good example is WY3724, 95-100% attenuation isn't out of the ordinary! Yet WYeast quote 76-80%.

 

[jeremy]

Not at all, just going on others suggestions. As previously mentioned there is a bready / yeasty character, but then there is a hell of a lot of yeast still in suspension too, so i dont think this would be caused by infection.

Great to have someone not condemning my beer to an infection, wonder if you will rouse some debate...

 

[kook]

jeremy, it's worth having a read of Brew Like A Monk. That strain (1214) is rumoured to originate from Chimay.

They achieve 87-89% attenuation with their house yeast, but it is difficult to say whether they use a lower or higher proportion of simple sugars.


edit - BTW I recently achieved 89% with an all malt batch and a high percentage of specialty malts, using WY3711 (quoted attenuation 77-83%). These strains go bonkers, I'm not sure why WYeast always underquote them, unless they expect the majority to underpitch and use lower than recommended temperatures.

 

[Stuster]

I'm with kook. I've had very high attenuation from a number of Belgian yeasts and I don't think it was from contamination (or at least not in all cases ). I've not used that yeast but the saison yeasts all tend to attenuate far above what Wyeast or White Labs say as kook says. I recently used the 3711 and it seems to have finished at 1004 from 1048 with no sugar. Doesn't taste infected though you never know. The Belgian yeast 3787 can certainly get into the high 80s. Remember this is just apparent attenuation and the real attenuation is much lower.

Echoing bindi, does it taste and smell ok. If it does, I wouldn't worry and let it finish off. It's probably close to done by now.

 

[Quintrex]

Not at all, just going on others suggestions. As previously mentioned there is a bready / yeasty character, but then there is a hell of a lot of yeast still in suspension too, so i dont think this would be caused by infection.

Great to have someone not condemning my beer to an infection, wonder if you will rouse some debate...

The dextrose produces ethanol, but leaves no/little residual unfermentables and is extremely fermentable, the ethanol it produces has a lower density than water and so will reduce the overall density/gravity of your beer. I'd guess its just the large amount of dextrose.

Q

 

[jeremy]

Hmmm... I suspected dextrose to be the culprit seen as i havent used it in a LONG while. The original idea of this beer was a Duvelish Belgian Blonde, but I thought with an SG of 1.060 I wasnt going to get anywhere near the abv of a Duvel. As it turns out i'm not that far off! Alcohol wise only of course i'm sure they wouldnt use dextrose to boost the gravity....

 

[kook]

As it turns out i'm not that far off! Alcohol wise only of course i'm sure they wouldnt use dextrose to boost the gravity....

Thats exactly what they do! (Supposedly 17% dextrose in the case of Duvel)

Thats why the beers are so drinkable (or digestable), they use simple sugars to allow the beer to finish at a low gravity, along with yeasts that attenuate very well at high gravities.

 

[jeremy]

Thats exactly what they do! (Supposedly 17% dextrose in the case of Duvel)

Thats why the beers are so drinkable (or digestable), they use simple sugars to allow the beer to finish at a low gravity, along with yeasts that attenuate very well at high gravities.

I knew that comment would come back to bit me on the arse. Mental note, do a bit more homework before posting. <_<

On the plus side I may have created a more accurate clone than what I gave myself credit for, I wonder what the FG of Duvel is...? Not worth warming and de-carbonating about $8 worth of Duvel to find out!

As I get my malt for free (I have my ways), I have created 23L of the stuff for the price of about half a Duvel stubby, so it doesnt need to be perfect.

(23L down from 25L gives you an idea of how many times i've double checked the ridiculous gravity readings :huh: )

 

[kook]

On the plus side I may have created a more accurate clone than what I gave myself credit for, I wonder what the FG of Duvel is...? Not worth warming and de-carbonating about $8 worth of Duvel to find out!

OG is 1.068 or 1.069 depending on the source you take it from (Michael Jackson vs Brew Like A Monk). ABV is 8.5%, so it should be roughly 1.004-1.005.

 

[white.grant]

jeremy, it's worth having a read of Brew Like A Monk. That strain (1214) is rumoured to originate from Chimay.

They achieve 87-89% attenuation with their house yeast, but it is difficult to say whether they use a lower or higher proportion of simple sugars.

Love those chimay esters :icon_drool2: .

I brewed a couple of batches of Blegian blonde ale with the 1214 for the NSW XMAS case swap and found that it was a great little attenuator. I slightly varied the lefty blonde recipe from Brewing classic styles slightly and while the finer details escape me at work, the FG was 1008 down from the mid 1060s.

cheers

grant

 

[SJW]

I just went back through my records and I made a Duvel Clone that got 2nd in a local comp. This one had huge attenuation too. I used and alway have used std. table suagr when I brew so I cant coment on the dextrose.

#44 Duvel*
Belgian Golden Strong Ale

Type: All Grain
Date: 21/07/2007
Batch Size: 28.00 L
Brewer: Stephen Wright
Boil Size: 35.90 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Hop Monster Brewery
Taste Rating(out of 50): 0.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6500.00 gm Pilsner Boh (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 86.67 %
12.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.90 %] (60 min) Hops 9.6 IBU
45.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.20 %] (60 min) Hops 15.3 IBU
55.00 gm Saaz [2.50 %] (30 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1000.00 gm Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (2.0 EBC) Sugar 13.33 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Strong Ale (Wyeast Labs #1388) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.066 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.066 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.62 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.31 %
Bitterness: 33.4 IBU Calories: 622 cal/l
Est Color: 7.0 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 6500.00 gm
Sparge Water: 22.41 L Grain Temperature: 12.0 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 12.0 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Double Infusion, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 10.00 L of water at 59.4 C 50.0 C
60 min Saccrification Add 10.00 L of water at 83.7 C 65.0 C



Mash Notes: Double step infusion - for light body beers requiring a protein rest. Used primarily in beers high in unmodified grains or adjuncts.
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.6
Pressure/Weight: 181.1 gm Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 15.6 C Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 11.1 C

Notes

Bottled 24 litres with 195g Dex, 1 tsp Gelatine and 1/2 pack of US/56. After CC'ing for 2 weeks at -4 deg C.