Help A Yank Clone Redback

[HoppingMad]

Have a Redback Original in hand now and can agree with Thirsty looking at it that this beer is clear as can be as opposed to many Weizens that are cloudy. The pride of ringwood you really can't taste in a big way though and really sits in the background of the beer. The clove and apple is at the front, with light banana underneath - but doesn't taste banana smoothie to me at all.

Gotta admit though - Redback has gone through a lot of incarnations - at one point I stopped drinking it as the POR was too full on and it wound up tasting like Melbourne Bitter (might have been when Fosters bought Matilda bay and f'd the recipe), but drinking it now (if you like wheats) it's a good one for a hot night and pretty similar to what I remember.

Agree on the low temperature fermentation comments. When I do my AG version I'm gunning for the clove/apple ester and less banana so it's 16degrees or less for me. But will have to see what happens. As they say - 'The best laid plans...'

Hopper.

 

[hoppinmad]

Have a Redback Original in hand now and can agree with Thirsty looking at it that this beer is clear as can be as opposed to many Weizens that are cloudy. The pride of ringwood you really can't taste in a big way though and really sits in the background of the beer. The clove and apple is at the front, with light banana underneath - but doesn't taste banana smoothie to me at all.

Gotta admit though - Redback has gone through a lot of incarnations - at one point I stopped drinking it as the POR was too full on and it wound up tasting like Melbourne Bitter (might have been when Fosters bought Matilda bay and f'd the recipe), but drinking it now (if you like wheats) it's a good one for a hot night and pretty similar to what I remember.

Agree on the low temperature fermentation comments. When I do my AG version I'm gunning for the clove/apple ester and less banana so it's 16degrees or less for me. But will have to see what happens. As they say - 'The best laid plans...'

Hopper.

Hi again Hopping... it's Hoppin.

You say you've done Redback AG? What's your recipe? I love this beer and was thinking I might try it. It's 50/50 wheat/barley yeah?

 

[Weizguy]

A while back I saved a copy of the Matilda Bay web page for Redback. They are currently rebuilding the website, so this info may be lost now.

It states (stated) 18 IBU, 4.7% abv and 9 EBC colour.
"More than 50% of the malt is Stirling Wheat which comes from the Avon Valley in Western Australia."
I believe that it is Barrett Burston wheat (from another source, which I can't confirm at the moment).

Hope that helps. You're welcome.

Beerz
Les

P.S. all wheat yeasts are ale yeast, once thought to be a different strain (Saccharomyces delbrueckii), but now considered to be plain old S. cerevisiae.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Would WB-06 work here??? From memory the clove phenols are more prominent, and there isnt much banana??

Not really a wheat purist though. Maybe Batz could enlighten ?? h34r:

 

[SumnerH]

A while back I saved a copy of the Matilda Bay web page for Redback. They are currently rebuilding the website, so this info may be lost now.

It states (stated) 18 IBU, 4.7% abv and 9 EBC colour.
"More than 50% of the malt is Stirling Wheat which comes from the Avon Valley in Western Australia."
I believe that it is Barrett Burston wheat (from another source, which I can't confirm at the moment).

Perfect, that confirms the other site I linked.

So, we have seemingly reliable information that tells us:
1. 50/50 wheat/barley malt
2. 18 IBU
3. 4.7% ABV
4. 9 EBC which is about 4 SRM color
5. Pride of Ringwood @60 minutes and Saaz hops @5 minutes

That narrows down the possibilities quite a bit. The Saaz are barely going to contribute any bittering with a late addition, so the Pride of Ringwood have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of .8 oz/22.5g (even just cutting back to .6oz/17g would mean you'd need a silly 2.5 oz/70g of Saaz @5min to hit 18 IBU). If you're doing a full boil you'll have slightly better hops utilization and could trim those numbers a bit (consult your brew software).

As far as color goes, 9 EBC is about 3.8 SRM. Adding the slight amount of Pilsen DME has brought me from ~3 to ~4 SRM in the recipe, so this looks as close as I'm likely to get by the numbers at this point:

So by the numbers, I'm almost shoehorned into these malt and hops numbers:

5 lbs/2.27 kg of Breiss Wheat DME (which is 65/35 wheat/barley)
1.5 lbs/.68 kg of Breiss Light DME (all barley)
.8 oz (22.5g) Pride of Ringwood @60min
.35 oz (10g) Saaz @5min
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.012
ABV: 4.7%
Bitterness: 18 IBU
Color: ~4 SRM
Yeast: Wyeast W3638 Bavarian Weizen yeast

As before, Irish moss @15 minutes, gelatin in early secondary, crash-cool to clear as much as possible.

The major open questions are the yeast, fermentation temp, and whether to filter or just fine and crash. I'm sticking with the latter approach for the first batch, mainly because I don't have a filter on hand. We'll see how clear I can get it.

This yeast looks like a reasonable guess, and you all have convinced me to keep it cool throughout rather than let it rise a bit toward the end of primary.

 

[HoppingMad]

Hi again Hopping... it's Hoppin.

You say you've done Redback AG? What's your recipe? I love this beer and was thinking I might try it. It's 50/50 wheat/barley yeah?

G'day Hoppin,

Haven't done a redback AG yet - but am doing the detective work to get it as authentic as possible as I am one of those rare people who actually don't mind the beer. As a new-comer to AG (only done my second batch 2 x Dr Smurtos Golden Ale Clones) I am looking to do a basic wheat recipe first, then graduate to a Redback Clone like the one the guys have described possibly for my 4th batch. Basically assembling an AG recipe from this thread. If you look through the thread now you can pretty much deduce it.

I guess for an All Grain Recipe we can deduce:

19L batch:
2.12 kg Barret Burston/Stirling Wheat Malt (but substitute what you can get)
2.12 kg Pilsener Malt (Suspect a pale/light malt like a Weyerman Bohemian Pilsener? This bit is still the mystery. Fosters are tightwads so suspect it could simply be a cheaper grain like Joe White Pils. Or Joe White Pils and a small amount of something quality over the top.)
18 IBU
4.7% Alc/vol

Hops -
28g Pride of Ringwood 60 mins
10g Saaz 5 mins
From what I've read (only sourcing 'Classic Styles' by Jamil & Palmer here) 90 min boil recommended for wheats.
0.5 whilfloc tab 40 mins

Yeast- Wyeast 3638 Fermented at or below 16 degrees (I'd be going lower than 16 to remove the chance of too much banana ester).

Beer clarity on Original is pretty good so you'd filter, or cold store to clarify a little if you're worried about look.

Hopper.

 

[SumnerH]

G'day Hoppin,

Haven't done a redback AG yet - but am doing the detective work to get it as authentic as possible as I am one of those rare people who actually don't mind the beer. As a new-comer to AG (only done my second batch 2 x Dr Smurtos Golden Ale Clones) I am looking to do a basic wheat recipe first, then graduate to a Redback Clone like the one the guys have described possibly for my 4th batch. Basically assembling an AG recipe from this thread. If you look through the thread now you can pretty much deduce it.

I guess for an All Grain Recipe we can deduce:

19L batch:
2.12 kg Barret Burston/Stirling Wheat Malt (but substitute what you can get)
2.12 kg Pilsener Malt (Suspect a pale/light malt like a Weyerman Bohemian Pilsener? This bit is still the mystery. Fosters are tightwads so suspect it could simply be a cheaper grain like Joe White Pils. Or Joe White Pils and a small amount of something quality over the top.)
18 IBU
4.7% Alc/vol

Hops -
28g Pride of Ringwood 60 mins
10g Saaz 5 mins
From what I've read (only sourcing 'Classic Styles' by Jamil & Palmer here) 90 min boil recommended for wheats.
0.5 whilfloc tab 40 mins

Yeast- Wyeast 3638 Fermented at or below 16 degrees (I'd be going lower than 16 to remove the chance of too much banana ester).

Beer clarity on Original is pretty good so you'd filter, or cold store to clarify a little if you're worried about look.

Hopper.

I think you want more like 17g of PoR and 8g of Saaz or so in a 19l boil to hit 18 IBU.

Also I think the grain bill's a little high for an 80% mash efficiency (it'd be more like 1.8 kg of each) but could be okay for a lower efficiency. That's definitely something that every all-grain brewer has to calculate on his or her own.

Here's one take at it in the recipator:
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?item=7998

Am I way off here? Or is HBD's recipator? That's what I'm using to formulate the extract version, so I hope it's not too far off!

 

[HoppingMad]

I think you want more like 17g of PoR and 8g of Saaz or so in a 19l boil to hit 18 IBU.

Also I think the grain bill's a little high for an 80% mash efficiency (it'd be more like 1.8 kg of each) but could be okay for a lower efficiency. That's definitely something that every all-grain brewer has to calculate on his or her own.

Here's one take at it in the recipator:
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?item=7998

Am I way off here? Or is HBD's recipator? That's what I'm using to formulate the extract version, so I hope it's not too far off!

Good points. Will suss it further and adjust, thanks! :icon_cheers:
Hopper.

 

[SumnerH]

Okay, barring any new feedback here is my final fine-tuned version. I've tweaked the amounts based on the specific characteristics of the Briess-brand DME that I'll be using; I've intentionally _not_ done metric conversions to encourage people to look at their own extracts and use a tool (like the free http://www.hbd.org/recipator or something else) to get the OG right while maintaining 50/50 wheat/malt and getting as close color-wise as possible.

Sadly the Briess wheat extract is a bit dark so this is going to be a point or 2 darker than a true Redback.

Anyway, here it is. I'll let you know how it goes, thanks for all the help!


http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?item=8001
Brown Recluse Kristalweizen
This is an Australian-style kristalweizen in the vein of the original Matilda Bay Redback. It should be nearly clear (not cloudy), pale, and relatively low hoppiness, with mild to moderate clove esters and low to mild banana esters. This is going to wind up a bit darker in color than a Redback.

Beer: Brown Recluse Kristalweizen Style: Weizen/Weissbier
Type: Extract Size: 5 gallons
Color: 7 HCU (~6 SRM) Bitterness: 18 IBU
OG: 1.048 FG: 1.012
Alcohol: 4.7% v/v (3.7% w/w)
Boil: 60 minutes SG 1.081 3 gallons
1 lb. 5 oz. Briess Pilsen DME
4 lb. 5 oz. Briess Wheat DME
Add the Pilsen DME and a touch of the wheat DME before the boil; add the majority of the wheat DME with 15 minutes to go in the boil.
Hops: .8 oz. Pride of Ringwood (8% AA, 60 min.)
.4 oz. Saaz (3.75% AA, 5 min.)
Yeast: Wyeast W3638 Bavarian Weizen yeast. Pitch a 3l starter cake. Ferment at 62F (over 65 skews toward banana esters in lieu of cloves).
Carbonation: 3.5 volumes Cane Sugar: 6.49 oz. for 5 gallons @ 62F
3.5 volumes is a touch on the low side for the beer, but on the high side for bottling. If you're kegging, go to 4 volumes.

 

[HoppingMad]

No worries Summer H! Good luck! I still need to tinker further with my Redback AG recipe so will post back when I create something
I deem close that will be of use to other people on the forum (might take a few months - as I'm going to experiment with yeasts and
grain bill (particularly the barley side) so check the thread in a while from now). My result might also help you reverse engineer
something into extract.

As an aside, I came across an Extract/Partial Redback Recipe on Cat's meow recipe site - Cats Meow

Have pasted recipe below to save you and other guys searching around for it.
Seems not 100% correct given our conclusions on the hops and grain/extract bill, but guessed they're substituting Goldings for
Pride of Ringwood to try and get a similar result, and I guess POR is not available everywhere.

This is what they've suggested:

Australian RedBack
Classification: wheat beer, weissbier, weizen, all-grain
Source: Allan Wright, ([email protected]) Issue #834, 3/2/92
I was modeling this beer after the Austrailian wheat beer RedBack.
Ingredients:
7--3/4 pounds, mix of 66% malted wheat extract and 33% barley malt extract
1 pound, crystal malt (steeped, removed before boil)
1 pound, amber unhopped dry malt extract
1--1/2 ounces, Kent Goldings hops (5.6% alpha) (60 minute boil)
1/2 ounce, Kent Goldings (10 minute boil)
1/2 ounce, Kent Goldings (5 minute boil)
1/2 ounce, Kent Goldings (in strainer, pour wort through)
1/2 ounce, Irish moss (15 minute boil)
3/4 ounce, Burton water salts
2 packs, Doric ale yeast (started 2 hours prior to brew)
Procedure:
My primary ferment started in 1 hour and was surprisingly vigorous for 36 hours. It
finished in 48 hours. It has been fermenting slowly for 5 days and now has stopped
blowing CO2 through the airlock at any noticeable rate (less than 1 bubble every 3-
-4 minutes) I took a hydrometer reading last night and it read 1.018. This seems
high for a F.G. in comparison to my other beers of the same approximate S.G.
The last 1/2 ounce of hops was put in a strainer in a funnel and wort strained
through it on its way to the carboy, as described in Papazian. A blow-off tube was
used.

Cheers, and good luck! :beer:

Hopper.

 

[SumnerH]

No worries Summer H! Good luck! I still need to tinker further with my Redback AG recipe so will post back when I create something
I deem close that will be of use to other people on the forum (might take a few months - as I'm going to experiment with yeasts and
grain bill (particularly the barley side) so check the thread in a while from now). My result might also help you reverse engineer
something into extract.

Awesome, thanks. At the very least I'll check back in with pics when I get something into secondary (my primary's opaque) and bottles, and when I pour one.

As an aside, I came across an Extract/Partial Redback Recipe on Cat's meow recipe site - Cats Meow

Have pasted recipe below to save you and other guys searching around for it.
Seems not 100% correct given our conclusions on the hops and grain/extract bill, but guessed they're substituting Goldings for
Pride of Ringwood to try and get a similar result, and I guess POR is not available everywhere.

Cool. I think I saw this and disregarded before my first post, on account of the hops.

But honestly for the bittering hops it probably doesn't matter too much--those contribute more acid than aroma/flavor, so substituting even vaguely similar styles isn't going to change the flavor that much. Substituting for the Saaz late additions is probably more noticeable but it's not like this is a very hoppy beer. Still I'm inclined to stick to the real hops used by Matilda Bay.

The rest of the recipe's a bit hard to nail down precisely, but piecing it together I get something around 6.6% ABV, 11 SRM, 17 IBU.

A bit dark, but pretty spot-on with the (lack of) bitterness. Overall it's probably too not far off--the different hops and especially the higher ABV will probably be noticeable in the taste. Higher ABV might not be considered a bad thing by certain parties, of course! The real question mark is the yeast, which is also a question mark for us. I've still not tasted a Redback, but assuming it's an actual wheat bear with some clove notes as everyone says, I have to think our weizen yeast is a better bet.

OTOH, their ale yeast is probably a lot more flocculent and likely to create a more crystal end-product without filtering. The other yeast I've thought about is the Wyeast 3333, which is also a weizen yeast but with higher flocculation but more subdued weizen esters. Should the GF disapprove of take 1, I'll probably give that a shot.

 

[HoppingMad]

No probs, good to see you saw that recipe too. Agree that getting it right might sit with the yeast - 3333 looks interesting but don't think quite right for real Redback.

According to Wyeast: "Subtle flavor profile for wheat yeast with unique sharp tart crispness, fruity, sherry-like palate."

The sherry like aspect doesn't seem to sound like what I've tried on the beer we have over here, but you'd get an interesting beer from it.

Still think the 3638 is on the money if the temp is right due to the apple/clove. The 3068 (Weihanstepan) will be banana overload so count that out, but the 3056 is milder so might be worth a peek the wyeast site doesn't say much about the flavour so hard to say.

Hopper.

 

[SumnerH]

I'm getting quite excited to try this, sadly I won't be brewing until 10 days from now.

I come from the state of Maine in the United States. It's as far north as you can go on the east coast of the USA, north of Boston and parts of it are north of parts of Canada. It's where most Stephen King books (e.g. the Shining) are set.

By area, it's about 86,000 km2--around the same size as Tasmania. The population is about 1 million people. But we have 8 or 10 good breweries. One of them is called Allagash, and they specialize in Belgian styles of beer. Their primary wheat beer is called Allagash White, and has recently gotten a pretty wide distribution (I can find it in some of the local pubs here in the Washington, DC area where I live now).

Now, the US also has a ton of "hefeweizens"--Widmer Brothers and Redhook are two of the most common. I put "hefeweizen" in quotes because the American wheat beer is a bit of a different style, and beer rating sites like beeradvocate.com would classify them as "American pale wheat beer" rather than a hefeweizen. We do also get the usual imports like Paulaner and so forth, and I am generally a fan of wheat beers--especially in the summer.

But you know what? I've been saying that I've never had Redback, but the more I think about it the more I'm pretty sure that I've never had any kristalweizen. So this whole endeavor (Note: that's spelled correctly on this side of the pond, please add a "u" on the way through customs) is becoming more and more exciting.


If anyone's interested in Belgian brewing, there's a pretty cool video on youtube about the Allagash brewery--they've built an old-style "coolship" for open cooling to encourage spontaneous fermentation and bugs as they try to create native-to-Maine lambic-style (also a high-wheat style!) beers. It's pretty unprecedented in the US.

 

[HoppingMad]

the more I think about it the more I'm pretty sure that I've never had any kristalweizen.

Mmmm... kristalweizens are good. Weihanstephaner and Shoefferhofer are my favourites. Makes me want to move to Bavaria! Paulaner is good, as is Erdinger - but those first two are my faves.

Hopper.

 

[SumnerH]

So, we brewed this yesterday. I made a couple of tweaks to maintain the same basic parameters--the Breiss extract I got was (surprisingly) 60/40 wheat/malt so adjuted the proportions there, and I did a late-addition of 2/3 of the DME so I brought down the bittering hops slightly to compensate.

This morning the yeast was fermenting along quite happily. I'll keep you all posted when it's done with reviews from SWMBO.

Thanks to everyone for your help!

 

[SumnerH]

So, we brewed this yesterday. I made a couple of tweaks to maintain the same basic parameters--the Breiss extract I got was (surprisingly) 60/40 wheat/malt so adjuted the proportions there, and I did a late-addition of 2/3 of the DME so I brought down the bittering hops slightly to compensate.

This morning the yeast was fermenting along quite happily. I'll keep you all posted when it's done with reviews from SWMBO.

Thanks to everyone for your help!

I got impatient and took a grav reading. 1.014 after 5 days. In all likelihood I'll rack to secondary (on gelatin) Monday or Tuesday, then bottle in another week--usually I give 3 weeks or so in primary and 2+ in secondary, but for a weizen I'll cut back significantly.

 

[SumnerH]

I got impatient and took a grav reading. 1.014 after 5 days. In all likelihood I'll rack to secondary (on gelatin) Monday or Tuesday, then bottle in another week--usually I give 3 weeks or so in primary and 2+ in secondary, but for a weizen I'll cut back significantly.

Doesn't mean much until it's carbed and in our bellies, but early returns are promising. We racked it Tuesday. Comment from SWMBO: "That smells pretty close". By today, the gelatin had cleared it up pretty nicely.

 

[manticle]

Brown Recluse Kristalweizen

I have nothing to add to recipe development but as a man who's very interested in arachnids and other crawly things, I'm very impressed with the name.

I guess Black Widow would have been the other obvious choice, given they're closely related, but Brown Recluse has a certain ring to it.

 

[SumnerH]

We cracked the first one today. It's probably 80% carbed, so shy of the final product, but it tastes good and SWMBO was impressed. She said it tasted close to the real thing, but it's been a while since she's had one so she couldn't pin down the differences. I'm hoping she'll have some more critical feedback in a week when it's done. Pretty decent clove notes and some banana in there as well; slightly more yeasty than a good Kristalweizen should be, but I overpoured a bit.

 

[kevnlis]

My guess on the grain bill would be equal parts wheat and barley, and at least 20% cane sugar. I reckon you could come pretty close with a wheat kit, and a half kilo of sugar if fermented with a proper kristal yeast