Help A Yank Clone Redback

[SumnerH]

Greetings from the USA! I'm in Alexandria, Virginia which is a suburb of Washington, DC.

My girlfriend is an Aussie from Perth, and Redback is among her favorite beers. The beer store near us has a fairly wide selection, so in addition to the typical Foster's swill we also get 3-4 different options from Cooper's (sparkling, pale ale, stout), Toohey's new, Foster's ESB, Jim Boag's, a new wattle-seed ale, and a few other Australian brews. Unfortunately, Redback is not among them.

I'm interested in cloning it for her, but I've never had one myself. So I'm sort of flying blind.

I am an extract brewer.

From what I understand, the formulation changed at one point. She would have been drinking it during the 1995-2000 period. Is that the time frame for the new or the old one? What's the difference between new and old?

Anyway, here's what I've figured so far:

1. 4.7% ABV
2. It use Saaz @5mins and Pride of Ringwood @60mins
3. It's a kristalweizen, perhaps a fairly light one
4. Carbs: 3.6 grams /100ml Energy: 172 kilojoules /100ml; 41 calories /100ml

I've also seen at least one claim that it uses an ale yeast from someone who seemed to know what he was talking about.

Usually in cloning a beer I'll decarbonate one and measure the FG, but sadly I can't do that without getting my paws on one.

So my first whack at a recipe is something along the lines of (3 gallon (11.5 l) partial boil, 5 gallon (18.9 l) batch size):

3 lb (1.36kg) light dry malt extract
3 lb (1.36 kg) wheat extract
1 oz (c. 28g) Pride of Ringwood @60 mins
1 oz (c. 28g) Saaz @5 mins
Safale 04 ale yeast
OG 1.049
FG 1.012
ABV 4.8%
IBU: 23

I'm planning to use Irish moss @15 minutes, gelatin in primary and a long cold-crash in secondary to help clear it up.

Any thoughts from anyone who's actually ever seen (let alone tasted) a Redback would be welcome, as would any other feedback.

Thanks for your time!

 

[PostModern]

Looks pretty good. I'd be more inclined to use US-05 than S-04.

 

[Tony]

Yep......... go with that and ferment with with US-05.

Of you could culture up the yeast in a bottle of coopers pale ale and use that. Will give a slight hint of bananna.

cheers

 

[Weizguy]

It's still a weizen and will benefit from a weizen yeast.

The recipe sounds OK aside from the 28 of Saaz in the finish.
Hell, don't you know there's a hop shortage, and that's far too much late hop for most any Aussie commercial beer.

I think maybe 10g of Saaz will be enough, and I'd be using W3638 (Bavarian Wheat) to get the right flavours, as W3068 is just out of style, and W3638 seems to match the profile.

Tried to clone one of these for a friend (his wife, actually) a few months back, and those are my findings.
Used all Muntons Wheat DME as well.

Beerz
Les

[Edit:** Actually, if it's the RK - Redback Kristalweizen (it's commercial name) and not the original Redback, you should:

a/ forget this recipe, as the RK is a lager (ooh, nasty - for a wheat beer).
b/ forget trying to brew it, coz it's disgusting.
c/ send the girl back for a replacement, as she's probably a faulty unit (more than most, I mean) :lol: yes I'm joking.
d/ Order some from Aust. if you don't believe how utterly filthy and loathsome this RK is. Ooh yeah, I dislike it intensely. Don't understand who the target market is, only that they're not familiar with real wheat beer.

But if the beer she likes is the Original Redback in the brown bottle (not clear bottle, how ridiculous) please proceed and let me commend her on her taste, and you on yours. **end edit]

 

[Mayo]

Greetings from the USA! I'm in Alexandria, Virginia which is a suburb of Washington, DC.

My girlfriend is an Aussie from Perth, and Redback is among her favorite beers. The beer store near us has a fairly wide selection, so in addition to the typical Foster's swill we also get 3-4 different options from Cooper's (sparkling, pale ale, stout), Toohey's new, Foster's ESB, Jim Boag's, a new wattle-seed ale, and a few other Australian brews. Unfortunately, Redback is not among them.

I'm interested in cloning it for her, but I've never had one myself. So I'm sort of flying blind.

I am an extract brewer.

From what I understand, the formulation changed at one point. She would have been drinking it during the 1995-2000 period. Is that the time frame for the new or the old one? What's the difference between new and old?

Anyway, here's what I've figured so far:

1. 4.7% ABV
2. It use Saaz @5mins and Pride of Ringwood @60mins
3. It's a kristalweizen, perhaps a fairly light one
4. Carbs: 3.6 grams /100ml Energy: 172 kilojoules /100ml; 41 calories /100ml

I've also seen at least one claim that it uses an ale yeast from someone who seemed to know what he was talking about.

Usually in cloning a beer I'll decarbonate one and measure the FG, but sadly I can't do that without getting my paws on one.

So my first whack at a recipe is something along the lines of (3 gallon (11.5 l) partial boil, 5 gallon (18.9 l) batch size):

3 lb (1.36kg) light dry malt extract
3 lb (1.36 kg) wheat extract
1 oz (c. 28g) Pride of Ringwood @60 mins
1 oz (c. 28g) Saaz @5 mins
Safale 04 ale yeast
OG 1.049
FG 1.012
ABV 4.8%
IBU: 23

I'm planning to use Irish moss @15 minutes, gelatin in primary and a long cold-crash in secondary to help clear it up.

Any thoughts from anyone who's actually ever seen (let alone tasted) a Redback would be welcome, as would any other feedback.

Thanks for your time!

Can't really help with the recipe,
but if that wattle-seed ale is Barons Black Wattle Ale, give it a try, its a rip-snorter! I think it would be, seeing as how Barons has signed a million dollor contract with US importers, (i think?)

And fosters ESB? Never heard of it.

Sorry for the OT

 

[SumnerH]

It's still a weizen and will benefit from a weizen yeast.

Yes, the more I search the more I think the person who posted that didn't understand the Matilda Bay page that seems just to be saying that it uses an ale yeast rather than a lager yeast.

The recipe sounds OK aside from the 28 of Saaz in the finish.
Hell, don't you know there's a hop shortage, and that's far too much late hop for most any Aussie commercial beer.

I think maybe 10g of Saaz will be enough

k, I'll tone that down then.

I'd be using W3638 (Bavarian Wheat) to get the right flavours, as W3068 is just out of style, and W3638 seems to match the profile.

Which yeast will be pretty key, I think. There's also W3056 for a more mild wheat yeast, but W3638 seems like a pretty center-of-the-style choice.

Tried to clone one of these for a friend (his wife, actually) a few months back, and those are my findings.
Used all Muntons Wheat DME as well.

Hmm. Yes, upon further investigation Munton's wheat DME is 55% wheat/45% barley. I'm using Briess, which is 60/40. So yeah, all wheat DME seems right.

[Edit:** Actually, if it's the RK - Redback Kristalweizen (it's commercial name) and not the original Redback, you should:

a/ forget this recipe, as the RK is a lager (ooh, nasty - for a wheat beer).
b/ forget trying to brew it, coz it's disgusting.
c/ send the girl back for a replacement, as she's probably a faulty unit (more than most, I mean) :lol: yes I'm joking.
d/ Order some from Aust. if you don't believe how utterly filthy and loathsome this RK is. Ooh yeah, I dislike it intensely. Don't understand who the target market is, only that they're not familiar with real wheat beer.

But if the beer she likes is the Original Redback in the brown bottle (not clear bottle, how ridiculous) please proceed and let me commend her on her taste, and you on yours. **end edit]

She's been living over here since 2000. I believe that the RK is more recent than that, no? So I think we're good.

Thanks for the advice!

Can't really help with the recipe,
but if that wattle-seed ale is Barons Black Wattle Ale, give it a try, its a rip-snorter! I think it would be, seeing as how Barons has signed a million dollor contract with US importers, (i think?)

And fosters ESB? Never heard of it.

Sorry for the OT

It is the Baron's Black Wattle Superior Wattle Seed Ale. I'm not surprised to hear that they've signed a big deal, that and Foster's are the only two Australian beers that are in a regular grocery store here (for the others I have to go to a specialty beer store). It only appeared on shelves about a year ago.

It didn't really grab me, but it struck me as sort of a spiced version of either a very light porter or a sort of caramel brown ale. I'm not, in general, a fan of porters and brown ales, so it struck me as "not my type" rather than "not a good beer".

The Foster's ESB is the one with a green printed label on it: http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/575/43121

I've never tried one, as the girlfriend has made it very clear that I will be single in a hurry should I purchase anything from Foster's.

 

[SumnerH]

Okay, here's round 2 of my sight-unseen Redback clone. In addition to the feedback above, I've found sources online indicating that Redback original has an IBU of 18, so I also cut back on the bittering hops just slightly:

6 lb 8 oz (~3kg) wheat DME
.8 oz (22.5g) Pride of Ringwood @60min
.35 oz (10g) Saaz @5min
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.012
ABV: 4.7%
Bitterness: 18 IBU
Color: 3 SRM

Yeast: Wyeast W3638 Bavarian Weizen yeast

As before, Irish moss @15 minutes, gelatin in early secondary, crash-cool to clear as much as possible.

Should I actually be filtering this?

 

[slacka]

I've never tried one, as the girlfriend has made it very clear that I will be single in a hurry should I purchase anything from Foster's.

Best not show her this link then.

 

[glennheinzel]

Yeast: Wyeast W3638 Bavarian Weizen yeast

As before, Irish moss @15 minutes, gelatin in early secondary, crash-cool to clear as much as possible.

Should I actually be filtering this?

If you can't find any WY3638, then I reckon White Labs Hefe IV would also be a good choice. Either way, ferment on the cooler side and crash cool afterwards to clear it up a touch.

 

[Screwtop]

I've never tried one, as the girlfriend has made it very clear that I will be single in a hurry should I purchase anything from Foster's.

From a kinda beer geeky point of view I'd say "She's a Keeper" Mate :lol:

Screwy

 

[HoppingMad]

Some interesting points on Redback and other Matilda Bay beers and how they brew them can be found here:

Interview with Redback's Master Brewer

In the last paragraph you'll see it confirmed that the Redback recipe is 50:50 wheat and barley, so make sure you balance them out if you want to get it authentic.

Obviously already covered is that Pride of Ringwood is used for Bittering and Saaz for finishing, so your recipe is looking pretty good.

Have seen some recipes online that use much less POR than yours, so will be interested to hear if your brew has too much bitterness compared with the original redback as I'm trying to do an all-grain variant of this one myself. I'm going to use the Fermentis Dry Wheat Beer Yeast for mine - WB-06, as from what I've read wheat beers' clove/banana flavours are all about the yeast. Mind you I reckon Redback is more clove and almost appley with a hell of a lot less banana than most wheat beers (certainly as far from a Weihanstephaner as you can get - which could be why an ale yeast could work?) Is a mystery that we'll have to find out.

Let us know how you go. As it will help me tinker with my recipe.

Cheers,

Hopper.

 

[Swinging Beef]

Redback, when good, is a masterful drop, but so many places in AU sell a substandard stinky version.
Id be aiming at a cool fermented wheat beer with a proper german weisen yeast.
Either that.. or pour your lady a Shofferhoffer Kristal... see if she can tell the difference.

 

[HoppingMad]

Just located this which confirms the yeast used in Redback: Article

"The difference is in the yeast used. The Germanic, original Redback uses an ale yeast in its fermentation, while the Cristal uses a lager yeast."

So the original hunches to go with an SO4, SO5 or even a recultured Coopers Yeast looks like they could be way to go for replicating Redback Original. Personally not sure about the Coopers, but could turn out quite interesting as an experiment.

Hopper.

 

[Trent]

3638 IS an ale yeast, as are all the other weizen yeasts. S04 or US05 will not give off the right esters or phenols. Considering redback beat schneider and weihenstephan as the best german wheat at the last AIBA, I can only assume it is an excellent weizen, haven't had it in 2 years. Wasn't overly impressed with the one I tried though.
Good luck with the cloning, I can confirm that les is an excellent brewer, and any wheat advice from him will be good.
All the best
Trent

 

[HoppingMad]

3638 IS an ale yeast, as are all the other weizen yeasts. S04 or US05 will not give off the right esters or phenols. Considering redback beat schneider and weihenstephan as the best german wheat at the last AIBA, I can only assume it is an excellent weizen, haven't had it in 2 years. Wasn't overly impressed with the one I tried though.
Good luck with the cloning, I can confirm that les is an excellent brewer, and any wheat advice from him will be good.
All the best
Trent

Cheers Trent, thanks for clearing that up - didn't realise weizen yeast and ale yeast are one and the same. Oops :huh: ! Guess that's the thing about brewing - you always learn something.

Think you're right then about Les' take on the recipe with the use of yeast. Drank a Redback last night and the apple flavour is unmistakable and has to be the yeast. According to the Wyeast site the 3638 has: "Balance of banana and bubble gum esters with lichi and apple/plum esters and cloviness. Flocculation - low; apparent attenuation 70-76% (64-75F, 18-24C)". Looks like that's the number then!

Cheers and thanks!

Hopper.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The 3638 looks like the go, as people have said, fermented cool because redback is balanced much much more towards the clove than the banana, maybe even try a ferulic acid rest @ 43-44C in your mash to boost the 4VG levels - and I would be filtering or at least fining the beer. Redback is bright and clear with no suspended yeast or yeasty flavours.

crap - I just noticed you are brewing with extract - skip the ferulic acid thing, it was probably overboard anyway

 

[mika]

Maybe the 'mild' is a different beast (it's what they serve at work on Friday arvo) but it's like drinking a banana smoothie. I recall the 'original' as being quite similar as well.

 

[SumnerH]

Some interesting points on Redback and other Matilda Bay beers and how they brew them can be found here:

Interview with Redback's Master Brewer

In the last paragraph you'll see it confirmed that the Redback recipe is 50:50 wheat and barley, so make sure you balance them out if you want to get it authentic.

Awesome, this is great info. Thanks! That's going to move me to 5 lbs/2.27 kg of Breiss Wheat DME (which is 65/35 wheat/barley) and 1.5 lbs/.68 kg of Breiss Pilsen DME (all barley).

Those measurements are so dependent on the particular brand of extract that the more important thing is to:
1) figure out the ratio of wheat to barley in the wheat extract you use (65:35 is pretty high on the wheat side for both LMEs and DMEs)
2) Use that ratio and a big enough total mass of malt extract to hit the 1.048 OG, which if I did the metric conversions right ought to sit at around 2.95 kg of total dry malt extract (or slightly more LME, I believe about 20% more but I'm blanking on the exact number at the moment).

Also note that the 1.048 OG is a bit of a wild guess, based on somewhere near 75% attenuation; after I brew with this yeast once, I'll get a better feel for how far it actually attenuates and what OG I really need to aim for to hit the Redback numbers.

Obviously already covered is that Pride of Ringwood is used for Bittering and Saaz for finishing, so your recipe is looking pretty good.

Have seen some recipes online that use much less POR than yours, so will be interested to hear if your brew has too much bitterness compared with the original redback as I'm trying to do an all-grain variant of this one myself. I'm going to use the Fermentis Dry Wheat Beer Yeast for mine - WB-06, as from what I've read wheat beers' clove/banana flavours are all about the yeast. Mind you I reckon Redback is more clove and almost appley with a hell of a lot less banana than most wheat beers (certainly as far from a Weihanstephaner as you can get - which could be why an ale yeast could work?) Is a mystery that we'll have to find out.

Let us know how you go. As it will help me tinker with my recipe.

I think the "more clove less banana" thing will come from using a weizen yeast at a fairly low temperature; the more out of control you let those get, the more big banana esters come out. So for now I'm planning on sticking with the 3638 and trying to keep the primary's temperature around 61F/16C during fermentation (maybe let it open up about another 3-5C at the most toward the end of primary fermentation) which obviously means a colder ambient temperature than that. But that's something I'm still thinking about.

As far as hops go, I think you may be right about the IBUs; I have an inkling that the target ought to be more in the 13-15 range, which is really low (even the wheat beers up here use 2-3 times as much hops as that). Unfortunately I can't remember why I have that number in mind, so I'll have to search some more. This current hop schedule gives about 18 IBU.

I won't be filtering, so it'll be Irish moss or whirlfloc in the boil, gelatin/isinglass finings in the secondary, and a lot of cold crashing to try to clear it up as much as possible.

I'll definitely post pictures and give the GF's feedback when it's done.

I would post my own thoughts, but I've never seen or tasted a Redback so I'm not sure how useful they'd be. I suppose I'll post 'em anyways, but the GF's should be more useful for someone attempting a clone.

 

[SumnerH]

Actually the only IBU number I can find searching is from http://www.thequeens.com.au/flashfiles/beer.swf which lists 18 IBUs; that's what the current hop schedule would give.

I don't have any particular reason to trust (or distrust) that site. Thoughts?

 

[Trent]

I think the "more clove less banana" thing will come from using a weizen yeast at a fairly low temperature; the more out of control you let those get, the more big banana esters come out. So for now I'm planning on sticking with the 3638 and trying to keep the primary's temperature around 61F/16C during fermentation (maybe let it open up about another 3-5C at the most toward the end of primary fermentation) which obviously means a colder ambient temperature than that. But that's something I'm still thinking about.

Without trying to be a devils advocate or something, I have always found that I get the best banana/clove balance with plenty of banana pitching/fermenting my weizens at 16C. The higher I go (and more importantly, the higher temp that it is pitched at) tends to lead, in my experience, to stronger clove and sometimes some crazy medicinal phenols. I say err on th ecool side when brewing weizens, I have tried too many weiznes when judging at local comps that taste very clovey/band-aid - a flavour I thought was the sign of infection, but have discovered recently (and now adjust my comments accordingly) that this can be fairly common when pitching hot for that style of beer. Again, just my experience, and YMMV.
All the best
Trent