Helles Recipe Comments

[matt211181]

I thought I'd attempt to revive an old thread here instead of starting a new one....

I'd appreciate other's views/experiences regarding a stepped mash schedule for a Munich Helles.....

I'm planning to have a crack at JZ's Munich Helles recipe from his "Brewing Classic Styles" book. The grain bill is about 91% Continental Pilsner (I'll be using Weyermann), 7% Munich and 2% Melanoidin malt. The recipe specifies a single infusion mash at 66 deg C.

However, I then came across this article by Horst Dornbusch (author of "Bavarian Helles") - https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/747-helles-style-profile ....no doubt this guy knows his Helles if he's written a whole book about the style!

Regarding the amount of protein responsible for taste, mouthfeel and head retention - he states that "To achieve such a high level of dissolved protein in the finished beer, you must minimize the amount of protein lost in the trub during the boil. This means you must degrade as many large-molecular proteins in the mash tun as possible." , and then recommends the following stepped mash schedule to achieve this goal:

38 deg for 15 mins (optional)
50 deg Proteolytic conversion rest for 30 mins
63 deg Saccharification rest for 15 mins
69 deg Saccharification rest for 15 mins
77 deg mashout

Now admittedly, I only have a basic understanding of mash chemistry - but a couple of things are confusing to me with this mash schedule....

1. Wouldn't the 30 min rest at 50 deg favour the Peptidase enzymes? - which are responsible for "chopping up the moderate to short chains and break them down to their component form" .... taken from here: https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing ... I would have thought if Horst's goal is to degrade as many large-molecular proteins as possible, then a higher protein rest temp (such as 58 deg) to favour the Proteinase enzymes would be preferable??.....and actually the 30 min rest at 50 deg could have the opposite effect of what the goal is, and could result in a beer which lacks body and mouthfeel??

2. The Saccharification rests both seem very short to me (15 mins each). I usually check for conversion with an iodine test anyway, but still......15 mins at 63 and 69 deg......perhaps part of Horst's goal is actually to not achieve complete conversion???.....confused...


I'm tempted just to try it and step it through my HERMS, and see what happens.....

Anyway - sorry for the essay! Any views on the above would be appreciated!

Prost!

 

[mikk]

JZ's Helles is delicious, and the only way I can think of to improve upon it would be better head retention. An appropriate step mash could no doubt help, as could the addition of some carapils.
I've read Horsts Helles book, and his recipes contain up to 20% carapils so it's possible his step mash temps/times are based on his own recipes and commercial equipment. He also likes raising temps between steps using decoction, so perhaps the example times/temps may not be the best for your own brewing methods?

I'm fermenting a Helles at the moment & also chose to disregard Horsts time/temp recommendations, going with a 38deg mash in(as usual) & a shorter protein rest & long 66/short 72 deg steps. You know what works on your system better than anyone else, so don't feel like you have to follow someone elses instructions to the letter!

WLP833/838 are the way to go, with 833 being my preferred strain. Both are strong fermenters, & I tend to keep 833 at the warmer end of the temp recommendations.

 

[manticle]

I have no experience of Helles but I do have a fair bit with multi step mashing.

To my mind, 30 minutes at 50 with modern 2-row malts (Dornbusch is likely talking to a predominantly US audience who might be using 6-row) will actually have a less positive effect on body and retention but a shorter rest (say 5-10 minutes) at a slightly higher temp (52-55) will have the positive effect you are aiming for. Splitting the amylase rest into 2 is something I swear by.

As Mikk says (and so does dornbusch in many regards) - it's all about brewer preference so try it one way, try it another and see which results you prefer.

In regards to the beta/alpha times - I tend towards short beta rest (10-15 minutes depending on what kind of attenuation/body I want) and longer alpha rests (usually 40-45 minutes). I get the results I want but I know alpha works very quickly and there is a distinct possibility I could get away with a much shorter rest. I'm never in that much of a hurry so I haven't tried it yet.

I also always incorporate a 72 rest which helps with head formation and retention (55 at the start, 72 at the end combines for lovely foam and lace).

 

[matt211181]

Thanks a lot for the thoughts guys. Good to know I wasn't completely out of the ball park with thinking the 30 mins at 50 deg could be counter-productive......

With my HERMS, I've started to incorporate a short-ish protein rest (around 55-56 for 5-10 mins) and a 10-15 min rest at 72 (mostly from reading through some of Manticle's great advice in other threads) and have noticed a definite improvement with lacing......I wouldn't say my head retention is great - but it's better than I got with a single infusion

I'll probably try something like:

Mash-in at 38 deg - rest for 15 mins
55 deg for 10 mins
63 deg for 15 mins
69 deg for 30 mins
72 deg for 15 mins
77-78 deg mashout