Hefe Weizen

[donmateo]

okay, back to Hefeweizen:
I think, the mash schedule is not as important with Hefeweizens as it is with Pilseners.
If you do a single infusion mash as you used to do, that will be fine. Much more important ist the treatment of the yeast.
Of course, one can adjust a little bit the flavour by doing a ferulic acid rest or play with beta and alpha amylase and so on, but that is only a minor adjustment, that has no relevant influence.

So lets talk about Hefe (yeast):
...

They are some fine pics Zwickel - I'm curious as to how do you cover your fermenter? - being full to the brim with wort and not a lot of headspace for the krausen ?

 

[Adamt]

Blow off tube, I would confidently guess!

 

[Nick JD]

The only recommendation I could give you is: try to get some Schneider Hefeweizen, try to reculture the yeast that is in it, or do the same with Maisels Weizen. Theire yeast in the bottles is excellent for reculturing and they provide a wonderful arome. If youll succeed once, keep that yeast on Agar for the future.

So Zwickel - they don't use a lager yeast in the bottle like other hefes? The stuff in the bottle is the fermentation strain?

 

[geoffi]

So Zwickel - they don't use a lager yeast in the bottle like other hefes? The stuff in the bottle is the fermentation strain?

I believe this to be true of both Schneider Weisse and Maisel's Weisse. Haven't tried to culture one, though.


One general comment on these beers. Yes, you can bottle and drink them very fresh and they taste great. However, I find the amount of yeast can be excessive. You want some yeast in this beer, rather than some beer in the yeast. Leaving it a few days after fermentation stops or crash chilling a day or two gives a nicer result IMHO.

 

[warra48]

My last hefeweizen was in primary for 8 days, fermented at 17.5C, with WY3068. It's in the recipe database.
I pitched a good sized starter, with the wort and starter both at 17.5C at pitching time.
I started drinking it one week post bottling.
Turned out brilliant, reminds me a lot of Erdinger I can get locally on tap.
Lovely mouthfeel, just enough spice, with subtle banana aroma, all in balance.

I enjoyed it so much, I put down another one last Monday, and I'm hoping for a similar result.

 

[geoffi]

My last hefeweizen was in primary for 8 days, fermented at 17.5C, with WY3068. It's in the recipe database.
I pitched a good sized starter, with the wort and starter both at 17.5C at pitching time.
I started drinking it one week post bottling.
Turned out brilliant, reminds me a lot of Erdinger I can get locally on tap.
Lovely mouthfeel, just enough spice, with subtle banana aroma, all in balance.

I enjoyed it so much, I put down another one last Monday, and I'm hoping for a similar result.

Definitely agree with the temperature there (although I could only dream of being able to control temp to within 0.5 of a degree). Around 17 or 18 seems to hit the spot.

 

[Nick JD]

Does anyone know a bottle store on the Gold Coast that sells Schneider or Maisel's Weisse? I can't remember seeing either at Dan Murphys.

 

[therook]

soon....mate soon...Ill be there again, cant wait for it.....

.....but the Australian Government doesnt like me to stay for good, so I have to feed the airlines with my money, buing tickets every year.

okay, back to Hefeweizen:
I think, the mash schedule is not as important with Hefeweizens as it is with Pilseners.
If you do a single infusion mash as you used to do, that will be fine. Much more important ist the treatment of the yeast.
Of course, one can adjust a little bit the flavour by doing a ferulic acid rest or play with beta and alpha amylase and so on, but that is only a minor adjustment, that has no relevant influence.

So lets talk about Hefe (yeast):

First rule: cool down the wort as fast as you can, so no nasties can take place in it.
cool to ~20C, aerate the cooled wort prior pitching, so the yeasties will find a cosy surrounding full of fine food, they immediately will start to multiply themselfes. Take in account, that a vigorous fermentation can rise the temp of the wort for 4to 6 degree!!!!
That means the effective fermenting temp can be around 25C !!!

That way, the yeast will have done its main work within 48 hours already, give it another 24 hours to settle and start racking.
There will be still a little bit fermentable sugar in the wort, so the following two days at ambient temp will produce enough CO2 for natural carbonation.

Put it in the cold and serve it :icon_cheers:


here an example of a brew:

that is an usual starter for a 60l batch size Hefeweizen (big bottle):

and these are starters for my Pilsener:

....and that is Zwickels Hefeweizen:

Id like to emphasize, the amount of yeast cells, plays a main role in that game.
I usually use around five times the amount of yeast cells for Pilseners than for Weizen.

Cheers :icon_chickcheers:

That is some serious amounts of yeast there zwickel ( I assume there 5 litre demijons ), i dont think i have ever pitched that amount of yeast...

How many ml of just yeast would you say you are pitching for both your Pilsners and Wheats

Rook

 

[Zwickel]

I'm in love zwickel :wub: Interesting to note the Schneider yeast in the bottle is their true weizen yeast. I think i might have a go at culturing this one up soon. I need some Weizen quaffers for the summer months. Do you find any ester/phenol issues with reculturing the weizen yeasts?

Ive heard reports of these traits lacking in the final product after building up from a slant. I dont know why this would be the case however.

Its actually the weihenstephan yeast AFAIK.

Reculturing Schneider and Maisels yeast from bottles is very popular over here. There are not so many brands that sells the original yeast in theire bottles, but Schneider and Maisels do so.
Of course, the quality of the yeast depends very much on some conditions like age, how the bottles get stored, did they stand in the sunlight for a while and so on.

Maybe it needs several attempts to get a satisfying result.

They are some fine pics Zwickel - I'm curious as to how do you cover your fermenter? - being full to the brim with wort and not a lot of headspace for the krausen ?

thats not the fermenter, I call it the buffer vessel. 10 litres of the wort get frozen for the next starters. To produce a sufficient amount of yeast from slants, I need at least 5litres of wort, for Pilseners even more. So I fill portions of one liter in bags and/or PET bottles and freeze it.

So Zwickel - they don't use a lager yeast in the bottle like other hefes? The stuff in the bottle is the fermentation strain?

yes, these two breweries are using the original hefe.

That is some serious amounts of yeast there zwickel ( I assume there 5 litre demijons ), i dont think i have ever pitched that amount of yeast...

How many ml of just yeast would you say you are pitching for both your Pilsners and Wheats

Rook

Id say for Hefeweizen its around 300ml just yeast and for Pilsener it will be around 1 to 1.5liter (pure) yeast

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[TidalPete]

That is some serious amounts of yeast there zwickel ( I assume there 5 litre demijons ), i dont think i have ever pitched that amount of yeast...

How many ml of just yeast would you say you are pitching for both your Pilsners and Wheats

Rook

Zwickel,

Appreciate your response to the above post.

Id say for Hefeweizen its around 300ml just yeast and for Pilsener it will be around 1 to 1.5liter (pure) yeast

Need to know HITBH do you get that volume of yeast in a starter? I use a stir plate & my last effort with 3 litres of 1.048 wort using 2042 Danish Lager got nowhere near the amount of yeasties your pics show & I'm pretty sure the homemade stir plate I use would not have the torque to be able to handle that amount of yeast anyway?
How much wort do you actually use in a Hefeweizen starter or any other starter to get that volume of yeast?
What's the secret mate? :icon_cheers:

TP

 

[HoppingMad]

Love this style of beer but have a long way to go to master it. Only done three AG weizens but it's on the to-do again list.

The biggest issue I have is how thin my AG hefeweizens come out.

Got handed a magnificent homebrewed Hefe the other day that did well at comp level and had great body and mouthfeel, but was a double decoction mash - something I'm nowhere near trying. Think on the next one I'm going to mash higher and add some munich and see how I go before climbing that mountain. I have heard about some weizen brewers adding some flaked oats to improve mouthfeel/head and am also considering my options on that. A lot of award winning wheats in the US I've seen appear to slip some oats into the formula.

Have been using Zwickels mash schedule and can recommend it. The Weyerman website also has some good pointers on mashing in this style. Adding a rest and stepping up the mash temp certainly has improved my wheatbeers from the first attempt (thanks Zwickel!). It takes more time, but I am seeing better results.

I also recommend very highly the Wyeast 3068. Great banana and clove when I have used it in the 20-22 degree range. I don't recommend the Fermentis WB-06 dry yeast, my results on this yeast on the one occasion I used it have been average and the flavour seems to degrade to phenolic much faster than the Wyeast product. Have a mate that used the Wyeast Bavarian 3056 which was quite pleasant and bigger on clove than banana.

On the subject of Schneider Weisse, I believe there is a big article on that beer and a clone recipe in a recent issue of the US BYO magazine (I think October). Talks a little about how you can acheive the slight sour flavour the beer imparts. You might be able to find it on their website if you dig around.

Cheers,

Hopper.

 

[Nick JD]

Reculturing Schneider and Maisels yeast from bottles is very popular over here.

yes, these two breweries are using the original hefe.

Awesome, thanks mate. Finding these beers is the problem though. I just went down to my local bottle shop and guess what? Of the entire list of weizens and weisses that have non-viable conditioning yeasts ... they have lots! The viable hefes for culturing ... none.

So I bought an Erdinger anyway. Not as good as Schfferhofer IMO.

I wonder what's the yeast in Schfferhofer?

What to the Deutsch think about all us Aussies brewing chick's bier!?

 

[grod5]

My first AG was last Saturday and was a Hefe recipe with 3068. Pitched on Sunday and it climbed out of the fermenter on Tuesday. I was planning on crashing this weekend and kegging early next week depending on FG of course. Zwickel's comments sound promising.

Smells like banana in the fridge at 19C.

Have to thank MHB for the donation of the grains and craigm for his advice.

daniel

 

[Zwickel]

....Need to know HITBH do you get that volume of yeast in a starter? I use a stir plate & my last effort with 3 litres of 1.048 wort using 2042 Danish Lager got nowhere near the amount of yeasties your pics show & I'm pretty sure the homemade stir plate I use would not have the torque to be able to handle that amount of yeast anyway?
How much wort do you actually use in a Hefeweizen starter or any other starter to get that volume of yeast?
What's the secret mate?

apologies for my pityful english, Ill try to describe as good as I can.

our target is, to multiply the number of yest cells as fast as possilble, thatfor we need oxygen and food.
Normally our wort is highly concentrated with sugar, too much sugar for an optimal yeast growth. That means we have to dilute the wort for a starter to achieve a faster yeast growth. Im diluting the wort (just using pure water from tap) to around 1030, just to reduce the Crabtree effect a little bit.
Crabtree effect means, too high sugar concentrations blocks the diaphragm of the yaest cells for oxygen consumption.
Crabtree effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crabtree_effect

Put the starter on the magnetic stirrer, start intermittent aerating, leave it there for around 24 hours, then keep it over night in the fridge, next day decant the used wort and add fresh wort to it. Continue that procedure until you have the desired amount of yeast.

I hope, that was understandable

Awesome, thanks mate. Finding these beers is the problem though. I just went down to my local bottle shop and guess what? Of the entire list of weizens and weisses that have non-viable conditioning yeasts ... they have lots! The viable hefes for culturing ... none.

So I bought an Erdinger anyway. Not as good as Schfferhofer IMO.

I wonder what's the yeast in Schfferhofer?

What to the Deutsch think about all us Aussies brewing chick's bier!?

Once I posted a list of beers here on AHB, but cannot find it anymore, that could be good for reculturing yeasts, others not.
If I recall right, Erdinger is not a candidate for reculturing.

ahhhh....Ive found it:

qualified beers Geeignete (Hefe)Weizenbiere:
Schneider-Weisse (Kelheim),
Maisel Hefeweizen (Bayreuth),
Kuchlbauer Weisse (Abensberg),
Ritter St. Georgen-Brauerei (Nennslingen);
Gutmann Hefeweizen (Titting),
Pinkus-Hefeweizen (Pinkus Mller, Mnster),
Prinzregent-Luitpold-Weizen (Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg)
Appenzeller Hefeweizen (Schweiz).


possibly qualified: Tucher Hefeweizen (Nrnberg).

not qualified Weizenbiere:
Erdinger, Schfferhofer, Oettinger, Franziskaner, Andechser (what a pity!), Pyraser



thats it, have fun :icon_cheers:

 

[TidalPete]

Many thanks Zwickel. :icon_cheers:

TP

 

[Rob C]

Once I posted a list of beers here on AHB, but cannot find it anymore, that could be good for reculturing yeasts, others not.
If I recall right, Erdinger is not a candidate for reculturing.

ahhhh....Ive found it:

qualified beers Geeignete (Hefe)Weizenbiere:
Schneider-Weisse (Kelheim),
Maisel Hefeweizen (Bayreuth),
Kuchlbauer Weisse (Abensberg),
Ritter St. Georgen-Brauerei (Nennslingen);
Gutmann Hefeweizen (Titting),
Pinkus-Hefeweizen (Pinkus Mller, Mnster),
Prinzregent-Luitpold-Weizen (Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg)
Appenzeller Hefeweizen (Schweiz).


possibly qualified: Tucher Hefeweizen (Nrnberg).

not qualified Weizenbiere:
Erdinger, Schfferhofer, Oettinger, Franziskaner, Andechser (what a pity!), Pyraser



thats it, have fun :icon_cheers:

Zwickel do you know if the yeast in the Paulaner Hefe-weisbier is a weizen yeast? Have got a couple bottles of this in the fridge.

Cheers
Rob

 

[Nick JD]

qualified beers Geeignete (Hefe)Weizenbiere:
Schneider-Weisse (Kelheim),
Maisel Hefeweizen (Bayreuth),
Kuchlbauer Weisse (Abensberg),
Ritter St. Georgen-Brauerei (Nennslingen);
Gutmann Hefeweizen (Titting),
Pinkus-Hefeweizen (Pinkus Mller, Mnster),
Prinzregent-Luitpold-Weizen (Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg)
Appenzeller Hefeweizen (Schweiz).


thats it, have fun :icon_cheers:

Thanks! But I don't think there's anywhere in my city (Gold Coast) that sells any of these beers :angry:

 

[Zwickel]

Zwickel do you know if the yeast in the Paulaner Hefe-weisbier is a weizen yeast? Have got a couple bottles of this in the fridge.

Cheers
Rob

Sorry Rob, Paulaner cannot be used.

:icon_cheers:

 

[rude]

Jeez food for thought Im greatfull for the advice Zwickel

Im single infusion batch sparging for ease as I havent been AG that long just trying to keep things simple

I used a wyeast smack pack & made a 1.4 litre starter with it, pitched half into a 50 50 pilsener wheat blend of grain & have saved the other half in the fridge for another go at a hefe wiezen I love Weihenstephaner
Hefe Weissbier

Pitched at 22c then bought it down to 18c & that is where it has sat for 6 days now

Jeez what to do now I was going to wait till it got down to a stable 1013 1010 there abouts, mashed in at 66c- 67c 15 litres, did a mash out 10 litres 78 15 litre sparge 78c 33 litres in the kettle for 25 litres in the fermenter

Should I rack now then chill dont know how low my chiller can go but I geussing 13c loaded with ice

I probably will do this one how I was going to then have a good look at this thread & give it a go just a few grey areas on how Zwickle does his fermentation process 3 days at 20c probably higher due to fermentation heat rack & cold condition for a week then drink is that it ?????

Oh for a nice wiezen

cheers all

 

[hughyg]

So what do people think of the 30C rule I heard about once. Pitch at 12C then let it rise to 18C for the duration of ferment (12+18=30). Or 11C and 19C. I think I heard about it on the Jamill Hefe show.