Hefe Weizen Woes

[Julez]

Hi all,

I've brewed a couple of dud AG Hefe Weizen batches recently. After some advice/suggestions as to what may have gone wrong...

Both batches tasted great in the fermenter and everything went well with the mash and boil. However, they both seemed to deteriorate rapidly in the bottles. Both turned out quite tasteless, with a solvent-like heat to them and lost all their nice breadiness and phenolic and estery character within 2-3 weeks in bottles. I put it down to a wild yeast infection in the first instance, so was meticulous with hygiene for the second batch. I'm wondering whether it could be because I used carbonation drops? Since they were not sterile/sanitized in any way, could this have had an impact?

I think for future batches I will boil dextrose and dose bottles, rather than bulk prime, in that way instead. Or maybe I need to use some other form of speise for a hefe weizen - e.g. unpitched wort + fresh yeast?

My recipe and process was:

65% Weyermann pale wheat
30% Pilsener
5% Cara Hell
20 minute ferulic acid rest, 20 minute protein rest, sacc rest 60 mins at 65 degrees, mashout 76
All rests were via stepped infusions, not direct heat or decoction.
OG 1.044 (turned out too low due to a calculation error)
15 IBU with Hallertauer at 60 mins
2hr boil
Wyeast 3068
Pitch at 12, ferment at 18 degrees
Primary 10 days, then to bottles.

Was very careful with sanitation and avoiding oxidation at all stages. I'm convinced it's either my fermenter gone bad or those carb drops....the first batch gave off huge fizz and large bubbles, but no head retention, the second batch has "normal looking" carbonation and holds a head well - it just has a slight solvent-like heat and no flavour

What do you guys reckon?

 

[warrenlw63]

Hey Julez

Did you use the same pack of 3068 for both batches?

Also how long did you age in the bottle for?

Warren -

 

[ant]

The fermentation temp looks good, and that would be your key driver for esters and phenols; 3-4 weeks is pretty short to be losing them!

I've had my best results using 5kg malted wheat, 5 kg pils and about 0.5 kg torrefied wheat mashed at 66-67C. Could it be the additional 15% wheat dominating the flavour? What was the SG? Even at 1.001, I'm thinking there shouldn't be hot fusels given the fermentation temp.

One way to get around the question of carbonation drops/bulk priming could be to rack straight to keg and drink soon - I like the breadiness of ~10 day old hefe.

 

[Julez]

Hey Julez

Did you use the same pack of 3068 for both batches?

Also how long did you age in the bottle for?

Warren -

Hi Warren,

that recipe was from the second batch. The two batches were similar but not identical. I used the Danstar dried wheat yeast for the first batch. That first batch was way nastier than the second - totally undrinkable with a dominant solvent-like heat. The second batch is just tasteless with a slight heat and not enjoyable at all.

The second batch was a fresh Activator pack of the 3068, it was nicely swollen before pitching and it only took about 2hrs to swell right up. I even sanitised the outside of the pack and the scissors I used to cut it open.

Fermentation finished after about 5 days, then it sat for another 5 in primary. Threw up a mega krauesen and all looked really good throughout, nice smells, nice tasting samples. FG was 1.008. Bottled at that point and the latest batch has been in bottles for two weeks sitting at 19-20 degrees in a fridge with a Fridgemate fridge controller.

I should add, these are both my first cracks at any wheat beer style.

edit: I did forget to oxygenate the wort in both instances before pitching, which also may have been a problem...

 

[ant]

One pack of 3068 for 19-22L is a bit shy of optimum; a starter or 2 smackpacks would help. A dose of oxygen would also help, although I'm not sure why 3068 would throw off solventy heat without it.

 

[Julez]

One pack of 3068 for 19-22L is a bit shy of optimum; a starter or 2 smackpacks would help. A dose of oxygen would also help, although I'm not sure why 3068 would throw off solventy heat without it.

Really? I thought 1 x Activator smack pack was all that was required for a 5 gallon batch, for direct wort innoculation? Or am I trusting the packet instructions too much :huh:

I'm sure my problem is to do with infection, because apart from not oxygenating the wort, I'm fairly confident I did everything else right in terms of process.

I did napisan, then bleach solution, followed by thorough rinse out with hot water, followed by no-rinse sanitize the fermenter, lid, o-ring and air-lock too, though....

So I'm thinking maybe my fermenter is RS, with some cooties hiding in scuffs in the plastic, or those carbonation drops. Otherwise, baffled...

 

[hockadays]

Have you made many other brews recently with the same gear without problem

 

[hockadays]

65degc is also fairly low so you will end up with a fairly dry beer, maybe make your sacc rest at 67degc next time and use the 3068 and try boiling up some dextose and bulk priming and see how you go.

 

[Julez]

Have you made many other brews recently with the same gear without problem

Have only done 6 AGs to date, of which the first 4 were all really good, a couple were excellent! The only equipment change has been going from no-chill to a plate chiller in the last batch. But I sanitized it before use by recirculating boiling water and then a no-rinse through it several times (hoses too).

 

[Julez]

65degc is also fairly low so you will end up with a fairly dry beer, maybe make your sacc rest at 67degc next time and use the 3068 and try boiling up some dextose and bulk priming and see how you go.

I think that sacc temp is pretty right for the kind of hefe I am trying to produce. Either way, the problem is the solvent-like heat and loss of all bready/estery character very rapidly.

I'd like to know if anyone else that has experience with the style has found poor results with an infusion mash like I've described? My final liquor:grain ratio after the final infusion was just over 3:1, from memory and I believe the hefe should be a thinner mash.

The thing is, it tasted GREAT in the fermenter, very bready, nice phenolics, very subtle banana. But all the breadiness disappeared along with what there was of the banana within a two week time frame of bottling.

Does anything about my process look wrong, or is this just an infection?

 

[rich_lamb]

My guess is that with even half that attention to detail you should have been able to produce a good hefe, and as you are saying everything is looking great in the fermenter.
So don't get distracted with issues about the malt bill, fermi temps, pitching rates, etc.

On the surface it does look like you have a source of infection at bottling. I'm assuming all the bottles are the same. You might want to measure the gravity out of a bottle to get more evidence of infection.

Lots of people use carb drops with no issues. The sugar itself is generally antibacterial, though you can never feel comfortable about anything you handle that goes into the beer. Bulk priming and boiling your sugar load is both consistent and clean, if done properly.

What about any other equipment you are using? Bottling wand? Siphon? The fermenter tap is a common source of gunge.

Hope you don't give up on the style because of this

 

[Julez]

My guess is that with even half that attention to detail you should have been able to produce a good hefe, and as you are saying everything is looking great in the fermenter.
So don't get distracted with issues about the malt bill, fermi temps, pitching rates, etc.

On the surface it does look like you have a source of infection at bottling. I'm assuming all the bottles are the same. You might want to measure the gravity out of a bottle to get more evidence of infection.

Lots of people use carb drops with no issues. The sugar itself is generally antibacterial, though you can never feel comfortable about anything you handle that goes into the beer. Bulk priming and boiling your sugar load is both consistent and clean, if done properly.

What about any other equipment you are using? Bottling wand? Siphon? The fermenter tap is a common source of gunge.

Hope you don't give up on the style because of this

Thanks for that Bitter & Twisted

After the first one didn't turn out well, I was very meticulous with the second and reviewed every step prior to commencing.

I'm brewing again this weekend and next (two different styles entirely), but I am going to go to town on all my gear in terms of cleaning and sanitation this time (though I thought I did this last time!!). As you say, could even be the fermenter tap, etc.

I've only opened a couple of bottles from this batch and they were the same, but I might give it a few more days then go through a few more, just in case the prob is limited to a few bottles. At least that should confirm whether it is bottle/priming related or something happening before that step. Will try measuring the gravity from a bottle too, as you suggest.

And no way am I giving up on the style, loooove the hefe :beerbang:

 

[hockadays]

The reason I say mash temps etc, is that I have made quite a few hefe's and experienced similiar things with a couple that I mashed on the low side, that is a loss of most of the flavour etc and it tasted great from fermenter. As for the heat / solvent like taste this could be from the yeast if it was stressed maybe. The best rsults I have had are with a protein rest @ 50degc and main mash at 67degc and a OG of around 1.048, FG 1.012.