Grain or water first? Does it matter

[SCR29]

When mashing in, does it matter which goes in first if your pumping water in from bottom of tun? Is one better than the other?

 

[klangers]

Depends on the temperature.

At low temperature (~40 degrees or less) it doesn't really matter from my experience (done both). This only works if you're doing deconction mash or you have a RIMS/HERMS system.

At strike temperatures that are hot, I'd recommend putting in the water first, then slowly add grain. This avoids "doughballs" which will kill efficiency.

 

[antiphile]

+1

I'd recommend putting in the water first, then slowly add grain...

...while stirring it in well.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I know a number of brewers who underlett

Have a look at this thread

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/12144-underletting-pros-cons/

 

[antiphile]

Very, very interesting read, Duck Stew. I've never heard of underletting or even thought about the concept before. Will definately have to give it a try since those that have successfully done it seem to swear by it and never go back.

Cheers

 

[idzy]

I underlet at 55c and have never had a drama. It is awesome and saves heaps of time/effort. I have tried using strike water (and as mentioned above) it doesn't work.

If you have a HERMS/RIMS system, I would suggest giving it a go.

 

[drofmob]

+ 1 for under letting

I gravity feed @ 50C. If I only open the ball valve (3/4' with 1/2' hose) half way its rare to get any dough balls. Fully open I have had one or two small ones.

 

[Tahoose]

I underlet and love it, it also means that I can mill my grain straight into the mash tun. This is one less movement.

Grain temp and strike water is always measured and calculated. So I hit my mash in temp pretty consistently. A lot less dough balls than I used to get also.

Works well for me.

 

[technobabble66]

How large is the volume of those underletting? I'm guessing Idzy's doing at least a hectolitre by now on a regular brew day...
Just wondering if that's the main reason that people turn to underletting? - because mashing in much more than several kilo's of grain is a bit of a hassle if you're pouring it in from the top.

FWIW, adding the water (~55°C) second but from the top does NOT work well. Dough-ball central. h34r:

 

[micblair]

Depends on the temperature.

At low temperature (~40 degrees or less) it doesn't really matter from my experience (done both). This only works if you're doing deconction mash or you have a RIMS/HERMS system.

At strike temperatures that are hot, I'd recommend putting in the water first, then slowly add grain. This avoids "doughballs" which will kill efficiency.

Wrong actually, your strike temperature calculation relies on the full charge of malt being added at once. If you slowly add your malt (whilst ideal for grist hydration etc.), you're effectively exposing a portion of your malt to a higher than accounted temperature, and by doing so will effect your limit attenuation.

 

[MastersBrewery]

Best is to spray both water and grits into the tun at the same time. When one of you guys figure out how to scale that down to home brew level let me know

 

[antiphile]

Let me see if I've got this right. So in order to get the "ideal" temp using an underletting approach, are you suggesting something like:

1. Have the strike water in the HLT at the desired mash step (or initial mash temp if a multistep mash);
2. let the desired amount of water flow into and through the grain.
3. Because of heat transfer and heat losses, the temp in the mash tun will now be several degrees to low. So using some type of HERMS/RIMS arrangement, ramp up the temp to the desired level.

If that's right, it's certainly a doable approach (or instead of using HERMS/RIMS, I'm guessing a decoction could also be done).

 

[SCR29]

Excellent thanks heaps, will give underletting a go, am running a herms, I have been filling pre heated MT(cooler) from boil kettle when at temp with herms/hlt ready to start at mash temp once mixed So underletting should work well for me.

 

[manticle]

This question comes up regularly on pretty much every homebrewing forum there is, including this one.

Bottom line is that in most people's systems it will make 3/5ths of an ant's perineum's difference to the end result, all else being equal. Once you start running larger systems, it may become more important.

I have added grain to water, water to grain and equal parts of one then the other. For all intents and purposes the differences to mash efficiency, wort clarity, beer flavour etc were negligible.
Doughballs can be either stirred/raked out or my preferred - doughing in so the mash is at around 55 will help eliminate them altogether.

I haven't brewed for a bit but last few times I was simply dumping in grain then adding appropriate strike temp by eye to hit 55. I only recommend not measuring when you are confident in your equipment and process though. When I say not measuring - I always measure temp because I do multiple step mashes and to not measure would be silly. 2 degrees the wrong way can affect the mash significantly.

Summarised as blah blah, forget it, find what works for you.

Innit.

 

[indica86]

word

 

[mxd]

I do a bit of all, start with water in MLT (heat to temp via HERMS), then I batch sparge, then I uderlet for the sparge

 

[idzy]

How large is the volume of those underletting? I'm guessing Idzy's doing at least a hectolitre by now on a regular brew day...
Just wondering if that's the main reason that people turn to underletting? - because mashing in much more than several kilo's of grain is a bit of a hassle if you're pouring it in from the top.

FWIW, adding the water (~55°C) second but from the top does NOT work well. Dough-ball central. h34r:

Just a lot easier to put your milled grain directly into the MLT and then add water, I have done it anywhere from 10kg upto 200kg for a collaboration brew.

You can use a mash paddle and stir for piece of mind, but if done at a reasonable pace, it is very rare to get a dough ball.

Idzy

 

[JDW81]

Let me see if I've got this right. So in order to get the "ideal" temp using an underletting approach, are you suggesting something like:

1. Have the strike water in the HLT at the desired mash step (or initial mash temp if a multistep mash);
2. let the desired amount of water flow into and through the grain.
3. Because of heat transfer and heat losses, the temp in the mash tun will now be several degrees to low. So using some type of HERMS/RIMS arrangement, ramp up the temp to the desired level.

If that's right, it's certainly a doable approach (or instead of using HERMS/RIMS, I'm guessing a decoction could also be done).

You could do that, or just have your strike water calculated via brewing software or on paper if you have a formula so that your strike temp is higher than mash temp, and the heat loss that comes from transfer, grains and MLT brings you down to desired mash temp.

If you brew often enough then you'll be able to hit your mash temp every time within ~1 degree.

JD

Edit: I underlet irrespective of my strike/desired mash temp and gently stir only once I have my full mash volume in the MT. I'm never troubled by dough balls when I underlet slowly and resist the temptation to stir prior to getting all my water in there.

 

[TheWiggman]

I would like to represent the People Against Darren and encourage you to have a read through this thread. Please do not allow this thread to descend into the madness that one did.
Listen to wessmith.

 

[JDW81]

I would like to represent the People Against Darren and encourage you to have a read through this thread. Please do not allow this thread to descend into the madness that one did.
Listen to wessmith.

Ah, Darren/The New Darren. I got some quality entertainment from those threads. The no chill and botulism hysteria also comes to mind.

I think the moral of the story is it doesn't matter how you do it, so long as you are consistent and can find what works for you and your system.

I underlet as it works best for my 3 tier gravity fed RIMS system, however BIAB brewers/single vessel brewers probably heat their mash water and add grain after reaching their strike temps.

There may be theoretical reasons for doing one or the other, but if you get good consistent results with one (or the other) then I'd stick with what works.

JD