Grain for stout- soaking them

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Miran

Active Member
Joined
30/8/20
Messages
42
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18
Location
Qingdao China
Looking for grain bill for 20 liters stout.. Easy one pls!!
Is the below one acceptable:
- 3.9 to 4 kg scooner malt cooper
-300 grams roasted barley
-300 grams carapills malt
- 0.5 to 1 kg flaked oats

I am thinking to soak them after milling for 24 hours?
Pls let me know what do you think! I do not have access to fancy grains up here in north and cost/time of postage is too high!
 
It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.

Should be similar to:
3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
1kg flaked barley
500g roasted barley

Aim for a low mash ph, you can add acidulated malt if you can get it otherwise I use lactic acid.

Willamette or Fuggles or similar hops to about 30ibus try both a 60m and a 30m addition maybe around 20:10 IBU

US-05 is fine or notty yeast.

Really depends on your efficiency and equipment setup in terms of quantities, usually the best way is to either convert a recipe for your system or speak in percentages.
 
"I am thinking to soak them after milling for 24 hours?"

Out of curiosity - why? What do you hope to achieve
There are both pros and cons but without knowing your system any advice would be guess work.
Mark
 
Hey Miran,

Stout is a pretty broad church, so a particular style you’re after would be helpful.

My go-to stout recipe was a dry Irish style, and it really simple (and scalable to any system).

- 71% Ale Malt (I used Maris Otter, but any pale malt would be fine)
- 20% Flaked Barley
- 9% Roast Barley
- Fuggles hops (single addition at 60 minutes for approx 30-35 IBUs)
- Single mash at 64C

Ferment with Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast (although Nottingham/US05 would also be fine).

I’d agree with Mark, in asking what are you trying to achieve by soaking the grains for 24 hours. You soak them for the mash, and you won’t gain any additional benefit from soaking them prior.

JD
 
There is an old mashing method called "Digestion Mashing" which did soak the malt overnight in ambient water, being European that was probably in the 6-15oC range.
There are some small efficiency gains (well at least all the malt is fully hydrated). There are also some issues, too long a soak and you can get some bacteria growing, these can add some pretty nasty flavour's that can survive the boil and end up in the beer. Costs more in both time and energy than a more conventional strike water temperature based mash in...
Personally I doubt the gains outweigh the drawbacks and I wouldn't think of soaking for more than say 12 hours.
But still interested in what the OP is trying to achieve.
Mark
 
I've been cold steeping dark grains overnight for my stouts, and adding them into the kettle at flameout or even directly to the cube. My reasoning is to smooth out the roasty flavours (same as cold brew coffee) but I haven't done proper experimenting. One upside on adding it to the cube is I can split a batch and end up with 1 cube of stout, and another cube with IPA (with all cube hops). The downside is it's tricky to figure out how much malt to use as it's less efficient at colour and flavour extraction (in my experience).
 
Hey Miran,

Stout is a pretty broad church, so a particular style you’re after would be helpful.

My go-to stout recipe was a dry Irish style, and it really simple (and scalable to any system).

- 71% Ale Malt (I used Maris Otter, but any pale malt would be fine)
- 20% Flaked Barley
- 9% Roast Barley
- Fuggles hops (single addition at 60 minutes for approx 30-35 IBUs)
- Single mash at 64C

Ferment with Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast (although Nottingham/US05 would also be fine).

I’d agree with Mark, in asking what are you trying to achieve by soaking the grains for 24 hours. You soak them for the mash, and you won’t gain any additional benefit from soaking them prior.

JD
I just started all grain brewing. Had only one shot! Again my issue is that I cannot find some of items you guys are mentioning! So have to sit all days to see how can I make them from other available ingredients! Mark I do not want you start again blaming me for not listening :)
Flaked barley is not in Darwin. I found dark roasted barley but chocolate barley and flaked one.. NOWAY! So I decided to make them by available one.. Pearl barley. The outcome in mash was not good! No issue with the malt but with grains yes. So I was thinking I may get more viscous gelly liquid/ color from miiled grains if I soak them for some time! Not sure about duration and water quality!
 
It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.

Should be similar to:
3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
1kg flaked barley
500g roasted barley

Aim for a low mash ph, you can add acidulated malt if you can get it otherwise I use lactic acid.

Willamette or Fuggles or similar hops to about 30ibus try both a 60m and a 30m addition maybe around 20:10 IBU

US-05 is fine or notty yeast.

Really depends on your efficiency and equipment setup in terms of quantities, usually the best way is to either convert a recipe for your system or speak in percentages.
Tnx Kadmium,

I googled alot to find difference between flaked barley and oat. Seems I can not use them instead of eachother so I have to order it online. Is there any substitute for Flaked barley. My main target is to get a heavily bodied milk imperial stout. Tnx again for your advise!
 
Hi Miran.

Unfortunately you may have to either order the grains specially or resign to brewing with the ingredients that you have available.

An imperial milk stout would need chocolate malt, a biscuit type base malt like Maris Otter, and other specially crystal malts.

You will also need lactose. I would suggest brewing less complicated beers, and getting a foundation for brewing. Not being negative or rude, but it seems you don't fully have a grasp on Malts and their relationship to each other and the final outcome of a beer.

Mashing is a very complex process and to get great, repeatable beer that's actually enjoyable takes considerable knowledge unless you are following tested recipes.

So, unless you have a thorough understanding between malts, diastatic power, kilning, crystal vs roast vs base, residual sugars, PPG, colour, what each malt does to the PH of the mash, each malt profile and what each malt contributes to the beer among other things, simply throwing what you consider to be "similar" ingredients in will not produce good beer.

Perhaps focus on what you have available, and look at brewing simpler beers. An imperial milk stout may require a reiterated mash to get the right OG, you need to consider BU:GU ratios and other things besides the mash ingredients.

Get yourself some good quality base malt, and focus on producing some Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) beers to get a foundation of what you're doing.

Additionally you need to properly understand your system and its efficiency, because the higher you go in malt bill generally the less efficient you become. After one brew you won't have any idea about what your system efficiencies are and you are likely to miss your target numbers by a large margin.

Unless you then boost with DME your GU:BU ratios will be off among other things. So even IF you had a recipe, and the ingredients, you won't know if you will hit the numbers.
 
I've been cold steeping dark grains overnight for my stouts, and adding them into the kettle at flameout or even directly to the cube. My reasoning is to smooth out the roasty flavours (same as cold brew coffee) but I haven't done proper experimenting. One upside on adding it to the cube is I can split a batch and end up with 1 cube of stout, and another cube with IPA (with all cube hops). The downside is it's tricky to figure out how much malt to use as it's less efficient at colour and flavour extraction (in my experience).

Ive been adding all dark malts at the end of the mash for years. Had issues with dark beers but once I started doing this, I’ve never gone back. And like you say, works great for no chill doublebatches
 
Hi Miran.

Unfortunately you may have to either order the grains specially or resign to brewing with the ingredients that you have available.

An imperial milk stout would need chocolate malt, a biscuit type base malt like Maris Otter, and other specially crystal malts.

You will also need lactose. I would suggest brewing less complicated beers, and getting a foundation for brewing. Not being negative or rude, but it seems you don't fully have a grasp on Malts and their relationship to each other and the final outcome of a beer.

Mashing is a very complex process and to get great, repeatable beer that's actually enjoyable takes considerable knowledge unless you are following tested recipes.

So, unless you have a thorough understanding between malts, diastatic power, kilning, crystal vs roast vs base, residual sugars, PPG, colour, what each malt does to the PH of the mash, each malt profile and what each malt contributes to the beer among other things, simply throwing what you consider to be "similar" ingredients in will not produce good beer.

Perhaps focus on what you have available, and look at brewing simpler beers. An imperial milk stout may require a reiterated mash to get the right OG, you need to consider BU:GU ratios and other things besides the mash ingredients.

Get yourself some good quality base malt, and focus on producing some Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) beers to get a foundation of what you're doing.

Additionally you need to properly understand your system and its efficiency, because the higher you go in malt bill generally the less efficient you become. After one brew you won't have any idea about what your system efficiencies are and you are likely to miss your target numbers by a large margin.

Unless you then boost with DME your GU:BU ratios will be off among other things. So even IF you had a recipe, and the ingredients, you won't know if you will hit the numbers.
Agreed with Tnx. Already ordered flaked barley, chocmalt and lactic acid. Have enough lactoze and base malt ( Scooner Cooper). Will wait. Can you let me know a good reference for getting more familiar with malt. Too many stuff on Web contradicting each other! I am using braumiester 20L Plus. cheers
 
I just started all grain brewing. Had only one shot! Again my issue is that I cannot find some of items you guys are mentioning! So have to sit all days to see how can I make them from other available ingredients! Mark I do not want you start again blaming me for not listening :)
Flaked barley is not in Darwin. I found dark roasted barley but chocolate barley and flaked one.. NOWAY! So I decided to make them by available one.. Pearl barley. The outcome in mash was not good! No issue with the malt but with grains yes. So I was thinking I may get more viscous gelly liquid/ color from miiled grains if I soak them for some time! Not sure about duration and water quality!
Anyone who knows anything about brewing could have told you that pearl barley needs to be gelatanised before you mash it. If you had asked.
 
I was just thinking how patient Mark is helping out beginners who won't start in a sensible way, IE baby steps.

I think it is good to take advice, which Miran has done but struggle to see how anyone serious about all grain wouldn't read about and understand the basics of mashing malted vs unmalted grains
 
Anyone who knows anything about brewing could have told you that pearl barley needs to be gelatanised before you mash it. If you had asked.
I do not like the way you reply questions!! I do not know anything at all but try to damn learn and damn frustrated with your bullies! But no choice as you are the one i need his advise. I read exactly what you wrote after first google i.e. "Gelatinize"! Thats why I oven baked barley which was a damn mistake!
"I was just thinking how patient Mark is helping out beginners............." I am afraind I do not agree with you!! Mark is not patient at all! I mentioned at start I am struggling finding stuff you guys are mentioing! Just returned back from City and checked all damn places including all asian markets to find some flaked barley.. all futile! Finally ordered online which will take at least three weeks!
 
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