Grain for stout- soaking them

[Miran]

Looking for grain bill for 20 liters stout.. Easy one pls!!
Is the below one acceptable:
- 3.9 to 4 kg scooner malt cooper
-300 grams roasted barley
-300 grams carapills malt
- 0.5 to 1 kg flaked oats

I am thinking to soak them after milling for 24 hours?
Pls let me know what do you think! I do not have access to fancy grains up here in north and cost/time of postage is too high!

 

[kadmium]

It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.

Should be similar to:
3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
1kg flaked barley
500g roasted barley

Aim for a low mash ph, you can add acidulated malt if you can get it otherwise I use lactic acid.

Willamette or Fuggles or similar hops to about 30ibus try both a 60m and a 30m addition maybe around 20:10 IBU

US-05 is fine or notty yeast.

Really depends on your efficiency and equipment setup in terms of quantities, usually the best way is to either convert a recipe for your system or speak in percentages.

 

[MHB]

"I am thinking to soak them after milling for 24 hours?"

Out of curiosity - why? What do you hope to achieve
There are both pros and cons but without knowing your system any advice would be guess work.
Mark

 

[JDW81]

Hey Miran,

Stout is a pretty broad church, so a particular style you’re after would be helpful.

My go-to stout recipe was a dry Irish style, and it really simple (and scalable to any system).

- 71% Ale Malt (I used Maris Otter, but any pale malt would be fine)
- 20% Flaked Barley
- 9% Roast Barley
- Fuggles hops (single addition at 60 minutes for approx 30-35 IBUs)
- Single mash at 64C

Ferment with Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast (although Nottingham/US05 would also be fine).

I’d agree with Mark, in asking what are you trying to achieve by soaking the grains for 24 hours. You soak them for the mash, and you won’t gain any additional benefit from soaking them prior.

JD

 

[MHB]

There is an old mashing method called "Digestion Mashing" which did soak the malt overnight in ambient water, being European that was probably in the 6-15oC range.
There are some small efficiency gains (well at least all the malt is fully hydrated). There are also some issues, too long a soak and you can get some bacteria growing, these can add some pretty nasty flavour's that can survive the boil and end up in the beer. Costs more in both time and energy than a more conventional strike water temperature based mash in...
Personally I doubt the gains outweigh the drawbacks and I wouldn't think of soaking for more than say 12 hours.
But still interested in what the OP is trying to achieve.
Mark

 

[hoppy2B]

He may be referring to cold steeping the roast barley.

 

[kadmium]

That makes sense Hoppy

 

[akx]

I've been cold steeping dark grains overnight for my stouts, and adding them into the kettle at flameout or even directly to the cube. My reasoning is to smooth out the roasty flavours (same as cold brew coffee) but I haven't done proper experimenting. One upside on adding it to the cube is I can split a batch and end up with 1 cube of stout, and another cube with IPA (with all cube hops). The downside is it's tricky to figure out how much malt to use as it's less efficient at colour and flavour extraction (in my experience).

 

[Miran]

Hey Miran,

Stout is a pretty broad church, so a particular style you’re after would be helpful.

My go-to stout recipe was a dry Irish style, and it really simple (and scalable to any system).

- 71% Ale Malt (I used Maris Otter, but any pale malt would be fine)
- 20% Flaked Barley
- 9% Roast Barley
- Fuggles hops (single addition at 60 minutes for approx 30-35 IBUs)
- Single mash at 64C

Ferment with Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast (although Nottingham/US05 would also be fine).

I’d agree with Mark, in asking what are you trying to achieve by soaking the grains for 24 hours. You soak them for the mash, and you won’t gain any additional benefit from soaking them prior.

JD

I just started all grain brewing. Had only one shot! Again my issue is that I cannot find some of items you guys are mentioning! So have to sit all days to see how can I make them from other available ingredients! Mark I do not want you start again blaming me for not listening
Flaked barley is not in Darwin. I found dark roasted barley but chocolate barley and flaked one.. NOWAY! So I decided to make them by available one.. Pearl barley. The outcome in mash was not good! No issue with the malt but with grains yes. So I was thinking I may get more viscous gelly liquid/ color from miiled grains if I soak them for some time! Not sure about duration and water quality!

 

[Miran]

It depends on what type of stout you are looking to make. If you want to go for a simple dry irish stout similar to a Guiness, then I would suggest upping the roasted barley, dropping the oats and carapills and adding flaked barley.

Should be similar to:
3kg pale malt (Maris Otter would be best if you can get it)
1kg flaked barley
500g roasted barley

Aim for a low mash ph, you can add acidulated malt if you can get it otherwise I use lactic acid.

Willamette or Fuggles or similar hops to about 30ibus try both a 60m and a 30m addition maybe around 20:10 IBU

US-05 is fine or notty yeast.

Really depends on your efficiency and equipment setup in terms of quantities, usually the best way is to either convert a recipe for your system or speak in percentages.

Tnx Kadmium,

I googled alot to find difference between flaked barley and oat. Seems I can not use them instead of eachother so I have to order it online. Is there any substitute for Flaked barley. My main target is to get a heavily bodied milk imperial stout. Tnx again for your advise!

 

[kadmium]

Hi Miran.

Unfortunately you may have to either order the grains specially or resign to brewing with the ingredients that you have available.

An imperial milk stout would need chocolate malt, a biscuit type base malt like Maris Otter, and other specially crystal malts.

You will also need lactose. I would suggest brewing less complicated beers, and getting a foundation for brewing. Not being negative or rude, but it seems you don't fully have a grasp on Malts and their relationship to each other and the final outcome of a beer.

Mashing is a very complex process and to get great, repeatable beer that's actually enjoyable takes considerable knowledge unless you are following tested recipes.

So, unless you have a thorough understanding between malts, diastatic power, kilning, crystal vs roast vs base, residual sugars, PPG, colour, what each malt does to the PH of the mash, each malt profile and what each malt contributes to the beer among other things, simply throwing what you consider to be "similar" ingredients in will not produce good beer.

Perhaps focus on what you have available, and look at brewing simpler beers. An imperial milk stout may require a reiterated mash to get the right OG, you need to consider BU:GU ratios and other things besides the mash ingredients.

Get yourself some good quality base malt, and focus on producing some Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) beers to get a foundation of what you're doing.

Additionally you need to properly understand your system and its efficiency, because the higher you go in malt bill generally the less efficient you become. After one brew you won't have any idea about what your system efficiencies are and you are likely to miss your target numbers by a large margin.

Unless you then boost with DME your GU:BU ratios will be off among other things. So even IF you had a recipe, and the ingredients, you won't know if you will hit the numbers.

 

[mje1980]

I've been cold steeping dark grains overnight for my stouts, and adding them into the kettle at flameout or even directly to the cube. My reasoning is to smooth out the roasty flavours (same as cold brew coffee) but I haven't done proper experimenting. One upside on adding it to the cube is I can split a batch and end up with 1 cube of stout, and another cube with IPA (with all cube hops). The downside is it's tricky to figure out how much malt to use as it's less efficient at colour and flavour extraction (in my experience).

Ive been adding all dark malts at the end of the mash for years. Had issues with dark beers but once I started doing this, I’ve never gone back. And like you say, works great for no chill doublebatches

 

[Miran]

Hi Miran.

Unfortunately you may have to either order the grains specially or resign to brewing with the ingredients that you have available.

An imperial milk stout would need chocolate malt, a biscuit type base malt like Maris Otter, and other specially crystal malts.

You will also need lactose. I would suggest brewing less complicated beers, and getting a foundation for brewing. Not being negative or rude, but it seems you don't fully have a grasp on Malts and their relationship to each other and the final outcome of a beer.

Mashing is a very complex process and to get great, repeatable beer that's actually enjoyable takes considerable knowledge unless you are following tested recipes.

So, unless you have a thorough understanding between malts, diastatic power, kilning, crystal vs roast vs base, residual sugars, PPG, colour, what each malt does to the PH of the mash, each malt profile and what each malt contributes to the beer among other things, simply throwing what you consider to be "similar" ingredients in will not produce good beer.

Perhaps focus on what you have available, and look at brewing simpler beers. An imperial milk stout may require a reiterated mash to get the right OG, you need to consider BU:GU ratios and other things besides the mash ingredients.

Get yourself some good quality base malt, and focus on producing some Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) beers to get a foundation of what you're doing.

Additionally you need to properly understand your system and its efficiency, because the higher you go in malt bill generally the less efficient you become. After one brew you won't have any idea about what your system efficiencies are and you are likely to miss your target numbers by a large margin.

Unless you then boost with DME your GU:BU ratios will be off among other things. So even IF you had a recipe, and the ingredients, you won't know if you will hit the numbers.

Agreed with Tnx. Already ordered flaked barley, chocmalt and lactic acid. Have enough lactoze and base malt ( Scooner Cooper). Will wait. Can you let me know a good reference for getting more familiar with malt. Too many stuff on Web contradicting each other! I am using braumiester 20L Plus. cheers

 

[philrob]

https://books.google.com.au/books/a...=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

 

[MHB]

I just started all grain brewing. Had only one shot! Again my issue is that I cannot find some of items you guys are mentioning! So have to sit all days to see how can I make them from other available ingredients! Mark I do not want you start again blaming me for not listening
Flaked barley is not in Darwin. I found dark roasted barley but chocolate barley and flaked one.. NOWAY! So I decided to make them by available one.. Pearl barley. The outcome in mash was not good! No issue with the malt but with grains yes. So I was thinking I may get more viscous gelly liquid/ color from miiled grains if I soak them for some time! Not sure about duration and water quality!

Anyone who knows anything about brewing could have told you that pearl barley needs to be gelatanised before you mash it. If you had asked.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

If you had asked.

You can't ask a question if you don't know what you don't know.

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

I was just thinking how patient Mark is helping out beginners who won't start in a sensible way, IE baby steps.

I think it is good to take advice, which Miran has done but struggle to see how anyone serious about all grain wouldn't read about and understand the basics of mashing malted vs unmalted grains

 

[MHB]

You can't ask a question if you don't know what you don't know.

See post #3 this thread

 

[Miran]

Anyone who knows anything about brewing could have told you that pearl barley needs to be gelatanised before you mash it. If you had asked.

I do not like the way you reply questions!! I do not know anything at all but try to damn learn and damn frustrated with your bullies! But no choice as you are the one i need his advise. I read exactly what you wrote after first google i.e. "Gelatinize"! Thats why I oven baked barley which was a damn mistake!

"I was just thinking how patient Mark is helping out beginners............." I am afraind I do not agree with you!! Mark is not patient at all! I mentioned at start I am struggling finding stuff you guys are mentioing! Just returned back from City and checked all damn places including all asian markets to find some flaked barley.. all futile! Finally ordered online which will take at least three weeks!

 

[Miran]

https://books.google.com.au/books/a...=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

Tnx alot. this is what I need

 

[philrob]

I do not like the way you reply questions!! I do not know anything at all but try to damn learn and damn frustrated with your bullies! But no choice as you are the one i need his advise. I read exactly what you wrote after first google i.e. "Gelatinize"! Thats why I oven baked barley which was a damn mistake!

I know Mark personally. He is definitely not a bully, as should be evident from the many posts he has, giving detailed information to so many questions. OK, some of his replies might be seen to be abrupt to some, but even a basic search about brewing generally will give answers to basic definitions of the brewing process. Just accept the way he responds, and learn from his wisdom!

Here's another link which should be helpful. This is the online 1st edition of this book, and the print version is now up to version 3+, but the basic information is still relevant. Definitely worth a read, and should answer most of your questions.

Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew

 

[Stoichiometrist]

I know Mark personally. He is definitely not a bully, as should be evident from the many posts he has, giving detailed information to so many questions. OK, some of his replies might be seen to be abrupt to some, but even a basic search about brewing generally will give answers to basic definitions of the brewing process. Just accept the way he responds, and learn from his wisdom!

Here's another link which should be helpful. This is the online 1st edition of this book, and the print version is now up to version 3+, but the basic information is still relevant. Definitely worth a read, and should answer most of your questions.

Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew

This forum has a wealth of knowledge and good advice. But the cost of receiving that information should not be being belittled or vilified. The original poster made it clear that they did find these comments unpleasant. And they did this without resorting anger or abuse.
As a fellow newIsh homebrewer, reading the posts I found it discouraging to say the least.
Is it just or fair to respond by projecting our own experiences and saying suck it up? I think more should be expected from the moderators,

 

[philrob]

I understand your comments, but I'm not able to change anyone's personality or approach. It is what it is. I myself don't find it is personally abusive or insulting. If you consider it breaches one of the site rules, report the comment and point out which rule it breaches. We can then deal with it as appropriate. There's nothing to stop you to not read his comments, if that's your wish.

 

[Miran]

I know Mark personally. He is definitely not a bully, as should be evident from the many posts he has, giving detailed information to so many questions. OK, some of his replies might be seen to be abrupt to some, but even a basic search about brewing generally will give answers to basic definitions of the brewing process. Just accept the way he responds, and learn from his wisdom!

Here's another link which should be helpful. This is the online 1st edition of this book, and the print version is now up to version 3+, but the basic information is still relevant. Definitely worth a read, and should answer most of your questions.

Welcome to How to Brew - How to Brew

Tnx for the link. We are learning from you guys!

 

[Stoichiometrist]

I understand your comments, but I'm not able to change anyone's personality or approach. It is what it is. I myself don't find it is personally abusive or insulting. If you consider it breaches one of the site rules, report the comment and point out which rule it breaches. We can then deal with it as appropriate. There's nothing to stop you to not read his comments, if that's your wish.

I will leave it up to Miran to make the call on that. I guess my point is that someone has expressed concerns, and the Moderator response was "Just accept the way he responds."
I work in a very hierarchal industry where bullying is typically subtle and pervasive. Most of the time people are not aware they're doing it.
Happy to leave it there.

 

[Miran]

I will leave it up to Miran to make the call on that. I guess my point is that someone has expressed concerns, and the Moderator response was "Just accept the way he responds."
I work in a very hierarchal industry where bullying is typically subtle and pervasive. Most of the time people are not aware they're doing it.
Happy to leave it there.

They worked hard and spend alot of time and money to learn and now sharing with us for free! I accept it and am going to suck it up I remove my hat for these guys! Anyway I also need to learn to be patient,work harder and do not get frustrated too easily. Cheers to you all! I enjoy being part of these community!

 

[hoppy2B]

Miran,

I recommend that you read 'How to Brew' by John Palmer. It is an online book well suited to beginners. It is free and easy to find. Just google 'How to Brew'.

 

[MHB]

Its a two way street, go back and have another look at the thread.
I politely asked what he was trying to achieve and the response was to take a shot at me (yes there's some history there), if he thinks my reply was terse he's probably right, you get what you give.
Bit bemused by the notion that apparently in the hour between my saying pearled barley needs to be gelatanised and him deciding to shove some in the oven (certainly not my idea) and mash it with undesirable results it has in some way become my fault.
Like I said, it goes two ways, ask a question and I've shown over the last 15 years or so that I'm happy to engage in a conversation. There is an alternative, probably be far less fun for either of us, turn up be rude, post lots of crap, take shots at people... When you get a serve in return, I'm a bully.
Ok I'll leave it there (provisionally)

Just a note it took a couple of minutes to find Flaked Barley at the home brew shop in Darwin (if that's what you call town), they didn't have any Roast Barley but had Black Malt (Patent), looks like that and what you have would have been enough to make a pretty good stout. Mind you if I was an AG brewer in Darwin I would be looking for alternative suppliers, very limited range.
There are 3 microbreweries in Darwin, I know a couple of years ago, at least one of them was happy to help out home brewers with malt, might be worth a couple of phone calls.
Mark

 

[Miran]

Its a two way street, go back and have another look at the thread.
I politely asked what he was trying to achieve and the response was to take a shot at me (yes there's some history there), if he thinks my reply was terse he's probably right, you get what you give.
Bit bemused by the notion that apparently in the hour between my saying pearled barley needs to be gelatanised and him deciding to shove some in the oven (certainly not my idea) and mash it with undesirable results it has in some way become my fault.
Like I said, it goes two ways, ask a question and I've shown over the last 15 years or so that I'm happy to engage in a conversation. There is an alternative, probably be far less fun for either of us, turn up be rude, post lots of crap, take shots at people... When you get a serve in return, I'm a bully.
Ok I'll leave it there (provisionally)

Just a note it took a couple of minutes to find Flaked Barley at the home brew shop in Darwin (if that's what you call town), they didn't have any Roast Barley but had Black Malt (Patent), looks like that and what you have would have been enough to make a pretty good stout. Mind you if I was an AG brewer in Darwin I would be looking for alternative suppliers, very limited range.
There are 3 microbreweries in Darwin, I know a couple of years ago, at least one of them was happy to help out home brewers with malt, might be worth a couple of phone calls.
Mark

Mark, I am not here to quarrel which seems you enjoy alot! I am going to ignore you from now on My apology to rest of you guys!

Anyway, There are three home brewer suppliers in Darwin area, Two OZbrew ( by different owners) and a new one "Darwin home brewer supplies" which is closed on Saturday and Sundays which I am free. Long time before your comments I mentioned that I have bought both lactic acid and flaked barley from grain and grape.I checked two without outcome and nothing on third one websites! Furthermore there are more microbreweries than three now in Darwin but I have not been in them or asked them any question till now but tried IPA of one of them "One miles" which is great!

 

[GrumpyPaul]

I reckon everyone's had their say on each other's response style, how they are perceived etc etc yadda yadda yadda.

Let's just leave it there and get back to talking about grains for stouts.