Gas In The Line

Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Agarn

Active Member
Joined
5/12/05
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
Hi all

I'm on my second keg after filling bottles for years!

I have a problem with gas forming in the beer line after I pour a beer. It doesn't go straight to bubbles after pouring, it just forms pockets after about 5 minutes. What this means is I loose precious beer everytime I pour. Should I shorten the line or is there a way I can fix this problem. (Besides drinking constantly, which is not out of the question)

You've all been very useful so far. Don't fail me now!! :D
 
It could be slightly over carbonated, or you need to belance your beer and gas lines. It's something that can take time to get worked out, but you get to rink beer while testing it out.
 
The first thing to remember is that a full glass of foam settles into only a few mls of beer, so don't panic from that point of view.

If gas is coming out of solution, there are two possible causes - either the pressure is dropping or the temperature is rising (or both). Both things happen the further along the beer line you get towards the tap.

The length of your beer line (in a balanced system) is dictated by how fast you want the beer to flow. You set up your temperature and pressure for your desired carbonation level, then make sure your lines are long enough / thin enough to restrict the flow to a steady pour.

If your pressure or temperature are fluctuating then all bets are off. You have to leave it alone for a few days to settle, then see what is happening. If you change something, leave it a few more days etc etc etc.

Draught systems are a zen thing.


:beer:
 
Wortgames said:
Draught systems are a zen thing.

:beer:
[post="95530"][/post]​

They sure are - still trying to get the balance right in my new bar - at least it slowed them up a bit at the xmas party ;) :party:
 
depends on the diameter of teh beer line and teh length , pressure you are dispensing with.

It would be much easier to offer sound advice if u put in more details:
Beer line diameter
pouring pressure
gassing pressure
beer line length..

Also - if you fill in your location - tehn someone local who has a keg system might invite you round so that you can check out how their keg system is setup..

Hope this helps
 
OK,

Beer line is 5mm and 3 m long. (Thinking maybe too long)
Pouring pressure is 8psi
Carbonating at 44 psi.

Had a little trouble with the first keg but is settled down after a short time. This one seems to be a bit stubborn.

Have tried gassing off with little result. I don't think it's over gassed because I can get a good beer out of it I just hate wasting the precious stuff every afternoon when I pull one off!

I'm located in Canberra. I have the contacts. I just don't have time to visit them!
 
Agarn said:
OK,

Beer line is 5mm and 3 m long. (Thinking maybe too long)
Pouring pressure is 8psi
Carbonating at 44 psi.

Had a little trouble with the first keg but is settled down after a short time. This one seems to be a bit stubborn.

Have tried gassing off with little result. I don't think it's over gassed because I can get a good beer out of it I just hate wasting the precious stuff every afternoon when I pull one off!

I'm located in Canberra. I have the contacts. I just don't have time to visit them!
[post="95561"][/post]​

Sorry for the hijack but I think your line is too short. Mine is 5m, longer = slower pour, shorter = faster pour. My sys is always under pressure and no leaks. Leak check regularly with soapy water in spray bottle.
You will get it right dont worry. :beerbang:
Hawko
 
Firstly, 44 PSI is WAAAYYYY too high - that would give you over 3 volumes of carbonation at 20C! And 8 PSI is probably a bit too low - that would only retain 2 volumes at 6C.

Let's say you want 2.5 volumes of CO2 and your beer is at 6C - then you need 14 PSI to give you the carbonation you want. Make sure you have enough resistance in the line to control the flow when the keg is at 14 PSI.

If you keep changing your pressure (or temperature) you will ALWAYS have problems, as the gas will always be entering or leaving the beer. This is why we get so upset when somebody screws with the regulator at barbecues - any time you mess with it it takes a few days to equalise and settle back down again.

Patience grasshopper. Gas on, gas off. Gas on, gas off.
 
I have 1.2M beer line and it works fine here, only time I have had trouble is when a keg gets over carbonated.
 
So your saying carbonate at 14psi and pour at the same setting? Or am I getting a little confused?? :blink:
 
Agarn said:
So your saying carbonate at 14psi and pour at the same setting? Or am I getting a little confused?? :blink:
[post="95575"][/post]​

Yep, that's the trick. Then everything can just calm down and behave itself. If you are confident that your system has no leaks then you can leave it connected that way for all eternity, it won't overcarbonate because it has balanced. If you are worried about leaks then you can turn off the gas each time after serving, but remember that this will lead to fluctuations if the keg loses pressure then gets repressurised.

If you regularly use different pressures for different styles of beer, you can either try to find a happy medium line length (which may run a bit fast for gassy beers and a bit slow for less carbonated ones) or you can have a couple of different line lengths to accomodate different brews.
 
That makes sense. I'll give it a go. Thanks very much for the advice. I'm sure I'll be back with more question.

Cheers
 
As I'm just setting up a keg system I don't profess to be an expert or anything, however i found the following sites to be useful for telling me how to design a balanced system / carbonate:

Draft system line balancing

A metric carbonation chart can be found here (along with bulk priming info which probably not be of much use now you've got kegs)

carbonation table (& bulk priming info)

Cheers

Crozdog
 
well... this is reminding me too much of highschool maths lessons
i'm off to the toilets for a smoke :)
 
me too tangent - its confused the crap outa me! :p
 
It's actually not that hard to get to grips with, but I think people often tend to overcomplicate it with awe and bad explanations. So here, for the benefit of future generations of AHBers, possibly, is my best attempt at de-mystifying the 'balanced' draught beer system:


The law of fizzyness

1 CO2 dissolves in beer. It is called dissolved CO2. CO2 also comes 'out of solution', in the form of bubbles. The amount of CO2 that stays dissolved at any time is a direct consequence of temperature and pressure.

2 Higher pressure increases dissolved CO2. Lower pressure decreases it. Higher temperatures decrease dissolved CO2, lower temperatures increase it. The effect is predictable for any known temperature and pressure.

3 We usually describe dissolved CO2 in 'volumes'. A litre of beer that contains a litre of dissolved CO2 is said to contain one volume. This isn't very fizzy. A litre of beer that contains 3 litres of CO2 is said to contain 3 volumes. This is very fizzy. Most average commercial lagers contain around 2.5 volumes of dissolved CO2.

4 It takes a few days for the beer to absorb (or release) its CO2, but once it has reached its particular equilibrium for its temperature and pressure, it stays there.


The law of foaminess

1 If the temperature increases, or the pressure decreases, then the CO2 will try to come out of solution. When it does this, the head-creating proteins in the beer form lots of bubbles, and the result is foam.

2 Pouring a beer will usually result in some decreased pressure, and some increased temperature. So you will usually get some foam on it.

3 If the changes are too great, then you will get too much foam.


The two commandments (of draught beer systems)

1 Thou shalt not screw with the regulator.
2 Thou shalt not screw with the thermostat.


Zen and the art of balancing draught systems

1 We decide what temperature and pressure we want to store our beer at, to give us the desired fizzyness.

2 We cunningly create enough resistance in our beer line so that we get a nice pour, at that temperature and pressure.

3 Different types of beer line have different resistance characteristics. There are charts that try to predict the effect of length, diameter, material, pressure, tap height etc, but they are usually for commercial installers who need to design a large installation. At the homebrewer level they are usually inaccurate and are no substitute for trial and error. The basic rule is get thin line, and cut it too long, so that your pour is too slow. Live with it for a week or so, and if you are sure that your beer has settled and the pour really is too slow, then shorten it a bit, and so on.

4 Relax, don't worry, have a home brew. :beer:
 
Good stuff Wortgames! I have one question for you and one possible, probably wrong, answer for Muga.

As for Muga: In my pub days, sometimes we used to increase the gas pressure to stop foaming as this holds the CO2 in solution. Then, beer gas became available, which has a mixture of CO2 and nitrogen, so we moved to that. The nitrogen is inert so doesn't get absorbed by the beer. All it does is act like a soft drink lid i.e. keeps the pressure on so the CO2 doesn't escape from the beer. The problem is when using CO2, that increasing the pressure may temporarily fix your problem by creating the lid effect, but at the same time, the beer will be absorbing the CO2 and become more carbonated! This was no problem in the pubs as we'd go through kegs on a daily basis rather than a weekly basis. This is why I am seriously thinking of going for beer gas (multimix???) rather than CO2 when I get my keg eqipment next week. Wortgames stuff seems excellent advice though. (By the way, cracked up at your post about drinking constantly not being totally out of the question - good on ya!)

Wortgames: Can you give me an idea here? About to get my keg set-up next week but had no idea about beer line length at all! Could you tell me what length I should start with? Fridge will be at 2 degrees, lager style beer (ale copy), and tap coming straight out the side. Am seriously thinking about getting Beer Gas (as in Multimix) to avoid above problems. Any reason why I shouldn't?

Cheers!
 
thanks WG! That's what I thought.
now do PAYG and religion....

only kidding :)
 

Latest posts

Back
Top