Fwh Adds More Bitterness Than 60mins, My Observation

[neonmeate]

How high were the AA's of the amarillo??

THe EKG were 5%, and the challenger was 8%.

i think they were 9.8% or thereabouts.

anyway these days i pretty much always use low alpha hops for bittering and all, never had problems with bitterness that needs smoothing out.

that guy from UC Davis who started that big argument about hoch-kurz mashing a few years back also said FWH was a simple reduction in hop effectiveness from hops being caught in the hot break.

 

[A3k]

Ive never tried FWH. Im going to make a Czech Pilsner in the next week or so. Ive got the ingredients, and after reading this, I reckon Ill give it a go.

Is a Pilsner an appropriate style to try this out on? Would I replace say the 20min addition with FWH?


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Al's Bohemian Pilsner
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bohemian Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 29.04 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 6.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 99.01 %
0.05 kg Acid Malt (5.9 EBC) Grain 0.99 %
50.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 23.6 IBU
30.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
1 Pkgs Budvar Lager (Wyeast Labs #2000) Yeast-Lager



Thanks
Al

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The fact that I am not a devotee of the FWH needs to be taken into account here, but -

I cant see any reason to do it. Your 20min hop is your flavour addition, if you move it to a FWH... its still a flavour addition right? All that happens is you eek a few extra IBUs out of it added as FWH. So you get (according to promash which calculates the IBUs differently across the board) with your current additions an IBU level of 37.2 and with the 20min addition changed to FWH - 47IBU

I could understand if you had a harsh bittering hop and you wanted to smooth it out... you might change the 60min addition to FWH, but this is saaz.

If you were looking to enhance the aroma with FWH, you would move both the 60min AND the 20 min addition to FWH - losing a little IBUs from the 60min hops, but gaining some from the 20 min ones, and gaining flavour and aroma from both rather than none from the 60min hop. Once again, promash say that that would change your IBUs from 37.2 to 44.1 and you get (if the FWH thing is true) a bonus to your flavour and aroma for free, so I see the point in that.

I'm sorry, but I don't really know what I am talking about here, I am just exploring the options and hoping someone who actually knows what they are on about will chip in and answer your questions and tell me whether the way I am thinking about this stuff is on the right track or whether I am just sad and confused.

TB

 

[daanmuller]

Link on FWH... http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/17/t...ing-techniques/

10% increase in IBU is stated.

 

[Kai]

The fact that I am not a devotee of the FWH needs to be taken into account here, but -

I cant see any reason to do it.

Foam control!

 

[Darren]

that guy from UC Davis who started that big argument about hoch-kurz mashing a few years back also said FWH was a simple reduction in hop effectiveness from hops being caught in the hot break.

Now theres an answer that makes sense.

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

Foam control!

Are you sure Kai? I always found a boil-over more likely if there was hops in the boiler as the wort comes to boil. For this reason I never FWH anymore.

cheers

Darren

 

[Adamt]

Depends on the type of boilover you get.. my understanding is there is two:

- Too much heat, boiling rate too high and foam production rate greater than foam dissipation rate.

- Flash boiling, occuring as wort reaches and surpasses boiling point but boiling does not occur immediately due to no nucleation point for bubbles to form, rendering a chain reaction and a great amount of gas (and foam) when boiling occurs.

The second boilover can be prevented with FWH hops or the old copper coin, boiling chips or even a few scratches on the bottom of your kettle.

Darren, maybe this is an increase in foam stability from the hop compounds? Not sure.

 

[mje1980]

Ive never tried FWH. Im going to make a Czech Pilsner in the next week or so. Ive got the ingredients, and after reading this, I reckon Ill give it a go.

Is a Pilsner an appropriate style to try this out on? Would I replace say the 20min addition with FWH?


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Al's Bohemian Pilsner
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bohemian Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 29.04 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 6.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 99.01 %
0.05 kg Acid Malt (5.9 EBC) Grain 0.99 %
50.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 23.6 IBU
30.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
1 Pkgs Budvar Lager (Wyeast Labs #2000) Yeast-Lager



Thanks
Al

Al, i checked my records, and i've been doing it since 04. I calc as a 20 min addition, and it works great for me, numbers wise ( IBU's ). I do it for a smooth bitterness, and nice hop flavour. Some people calc it as a 60 mn addition, so there is some differing opinions. Since trying it, i haven't stopped, and i like the smooth bitterness, and hop flavour. I think it's a bit like the No chill and HSA arguments, some are 100% convinced, some are 100% unconvinced, and some are in the middle. Try it, if you like it, do it again, if you dont, then dont try it again. Im no scientist, so i can't tell you the actual process, only what i've read ( which can also vary ). But, personally, 99% of beers i brew use FWH, and i don't plan on stopping.

Also, i boil 45 litres in a 50 litre keg, and never had a boilover, ever. This doesnt mean its because i FWH, but "apparently" it does help prevent it.

Cheers


P.S, if you calc it as a 20 min addition, just play wround with the numbers til you're happy. You could do 100% of your bittering hops as FWH, or you could do 50% of your bittering hops as FWH. Up to you, just play with your numbers.

 

[Kai]

Are you sure Kai? I always found a boil-over more likely if there was hops in the boiler as the wort comes to boil. For this reason I never FWH anymore.

cheers

Darren

I reckon it's as adam says... my kettle only threatens to boil over when the dissolved gases come out of solution right at the start of the boil. It's worth pointing out that I'm using an electric element and not opening a can of NASA whoopass under the kettle so I don't get boilovers from excess heat.

And I agree... any loss of utilisation in FWH is most due to compounds binding with the hot break.

 

[A3k]

Cheers fellas,
I reckon Ill give it a crack. Cant imagine it making a bad beer, so should be interesting. Almost wish I could be bothered doing two batches (FWH and not FWH) at the same time to compare.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

boil overs - I do it for the nucleation sites and because it releases a small amount of oils into the wort which break up the surface tension a bit. At work we use a byproduct of the hop-extract making process, which is all the oils etc etc - and it gets tossed in the kettle at the start of the boil to reduce boilovers (a 100,000L kettle is impressive when it boils over....) and it apparently helps to even out the boil and reduces the amount of energy needed in the hour too.

All that meshed with the advice I got from a couple of more experienced homebrewers to toss in a few pellets before things came to the boil. So I always have.


Stuff binding to the break material as it forms, makes a hell of a lot of sense as a primary reason for a drop in utilisation.

 

[BoilerBoy]

Cheers fellas,
I reckon Ill give it a crack. Cant imagine it making a bad beer, so should be interesting. Almost wish I could be bothered doing two batches (FWH and not FWH) at the same time to compare.

According to my promash calcs you could halve your bittering addition and add the other 25g as a FWH and still end up with around 37IBU.

Leave the 20 min addition as is and see if you think the FWH has added any smoothness to the overall bittering which is where I suspect its real benifits
are.

Cheers,
BB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

According to my promash calcs you could halve your bittering addition and add the other 25g as a FWH and still end up with around 37IBU.

Leave the 20 min addition as is and see if you think the FWH has added any smoothness to the overall bittering which is where I suspect its real benifits
are.

Cheers,
BB

Ahh that jogged something in my brain ... someone earlier mentioned that they had read that FWH worts were lower in cohumulone than non FWH hops.

Perhaps what happens is that hop compounds bind to the hot break as it forms, thus reducing the overall bitterness a bit - but for some reason, it is the cohumulone that is more likely to bind to the break material.

Thus you are trading a small loss in bitterness for a targeted and proportionally larger reduction in cohumulone - and a smoother bitterness even at the same level of calculated IBUs.

Maybe??

 

[BoilerBoy]

Ahh that jogged something in my brain ... someone earlier mentioned that they had read that FWH worts were lower in cohumulone than non FWH hops.

Perhaps what happens is that hop compounds bind to the hot break as it forms, thus reducing the overall bitterness a bit - but for some reason, it is the cohumulone that is more likely to bind to the break material.

Thus you are trading a small loss in bitterness for a targeted and proportionally larger reduction in cohumulone - and a smoother bitterness even at the same level of calculated IBUs.

Maybe??

Thirsty, I'm not a scientist and claim no expertise here at all, but what you have suggested sounds entirely plausable.

However, I remember having the theory explained to me that the benefits of M/H & FWH were achieved "prior to the boil" because bonds between the hop flavour compounds and the hot wort were being formed while they are steeping and were not lost during the subsequent boil as well as a bittering contribution.

Of course with FWH the hops go through to the boil so it becomes really difficult to determine the above theory, which is why last weekend I tried a mash hop and flame out addition just to see what bitterness really follows through without the hops themselves being present in the boil.

In the end I suspect the benefits of FWH are in a smoother bittering however it happens.

Cheers,
BB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thirsty, I'm not a scientist and claim no expertise here at all, but what you have suggested sounds entirely plausable.

However, I remember having the theory explained to me that the benefits of M/H & FWH were achieved "prior to the boil" because bonds between the hop flavour compounds and the hot wort were being formed while they are steeping and were not lost during the subsequent boil as well as a bittering contribution.

Of course with FWH the hops go through to the boil so it becomes really difficult to determine the above theory, which is why last weekend I tried a mash hop and flame out addition just to see what bitterness really follows through without the hops themselves being present in the boil.

In the end I suspect the benefits of FWH are in a smoother bittering however it happens.

Cheers,
BB

Yeah - there are two aspects to the FWH thing apparently. What happens to the flavour compounds, and what happens to the bitterness. I suspect that two different things are going on. Above I was only talking about the bitterness bit, because to be perfectly honest, I am a bit confused and I'm trying to understand whats going on one bit at a time.

Someone quoted Palmer earlier on in this thread and he seems to agree with your summary of the effects on the flavour compounds - and DrK pointed out that that might well have something to do with the pH levels.

Were you talking about the flavour compounds or the alpha acids DrK ??