Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[schooey]

Anyway, enough from me, longest post evar....

:lol: I know I'm probably one of the people you're caning as a nay-sayer, Zizzle, but you gotta have a giggle at the irony here; The twenty minutes it took you to write all that out is probably the most productive work that has gone into this build so far...

 

[bigfridge]

I wouldn't buy a single other thing if I were you. Make some progress first.

<snip>

Anyway, enough from me, longest post evar....

Best post evar !

Like Schooey said - biggest design advance in this project so far.

 

[dcx3]

"In my experience, professors would have to be some of the most practically useless people I have come across".

My wife works for a uni in admin and i can tell you for a fact this is so true.These people cant even do the simplest of tasks without debating it or dissecting it to the most minute level.Get a good tradie!

 

[kirem]

Same with software skills & electronics skills. I personally would recommend against using a windoze PC or PC at all. I don't really like PIC micros either. You need practically no CPU power to do this job. It's all about I/O. Go get some audinos. I used the same AVR cpu in the brewbot can really like the lib-arv and gcc toolchain for it. Alternatively look at a cheap ARM based board. Plenty of CPU grunt in any ARM. Can even get one that runs a full OS (linux).

**** it, if zizzle is going to make some effort so will I.

just about everything you want to achieve has been done using the brewtroller. http://www.brewtroller.com/wiki/doku.php

Take a breather read though the brewtroller forum, ask some questions over there.

I have used the brewtoller to build an automated brewbot. about the only thing that hasn't been implemented in a code release is automated grain delivery, but I know there are threads on it. I used to have automated grain delivery on a previous brewbot, but it really is not necessary for mycurrent setup. Mine was basically a hopper prefilled with the grain bill, feeding the motorised mill with a shute leading into the mash tun. the motor was started on a timer. so I could prefill the hopper and have it fire up in the wee hours. My old system was discrete hardware based on auberins PIDS, but the more I developed it the more I needed a top level controller and a lot of the interlocks and safety could be handled a hell of a lot easier with a uc.

You will find a broad mix of people over there from code cutters, engineers to fabricators. The code is open source, actively developed and uses the Sanguino. They have just updated to 128KB uc. You will find source code with compile time options to suit your system and you can purchase bargain hardware through the project as well.

In my opinion, one of the most important things to come from Zizzle and I'll second it, is to start putting something together, brew with it, write down all the things you want handled differently or developed
and make some modifications, brew again and so on. take off small chunks, do things manually, then think, now how best can I automate that.

I'll back that up with a heavy dose of listen to Lethal. a lot of what you have posted is bloody dangerous and downright stupid. playing with automation is a very different skillset to making sure you don't over heat anything, wiring, GPO etc and burn the place down.

Brewing in a laundry owned by someone else is a bad idea, brewdays, no matter how careful you are, can be messy. You mentioned a shed in one of your posts, go down that path, you won't regret it. come cleanup you can throw water around and do the job properly. mount your brewery on some wheels, so you can wheel it outside to cleandown.

I completely understand your need to tinker, but do it small chunks.

I have been developing my brewery over 5 or so years, I like to tinker and make mods. I have completely rebuilt it twice.

don't spend too much time getting everything perfect the first time around, chances are you will modify it at sometime. ie welding, make solid strong welds, but don't spend time making them pretty, just make them work.

 

[Bandito]

Wow, thanks heaps to Zizzle and Kirem. I really do appreciate the feedback and advice. I have read your posts a few times, and am listening.

I will be hooking up the normally open pinch valves to the relay boards this weekend and dialing in the required activation voltage. And time permitting the grain and hops dispenser too. Will be the first time I actually use labview, so it will be fun.

I will be automating each component one by one on the couch, and slowly building up the labview schematic.

While I am listening and taking note, you have cought me 85% into the project, and am way beyond the point of no return. There is not much left to get, from here on its prety much hooking up 12V circuits. Do you really want me to abandon the project that on the current schedule will be assembled and ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days?

Thanks again.

 

[bum]

the current schedule...ready for full scale testing in 42.5 days

Uh-oh! I smell an error.

I guess there is nothing to motivate like the sound of a hundred haters setting a reminder on their mobiles.

 

[Bandito]

Zakley! I did say current schedule though. Might be 32, might be 56. We all know what the haters can do though.

If I have time during lunch tomorrow I will get a cigweld weldskill 130amp with TIG kit, gloves, mask, argon gas and a regulator - wierd thing, is they only have a regulator without any guages! Sounds a dit dodgy to me, but is this acceptable?. Will haggle the price down though. And will get the phone number of a few local welders and schedule a crash course with follow ups over the next few weekends.

 

[Bandito]

Got the welder, a mask, regulator, gloves, a small disposable bottle of argon gas and a small disposable bottle of argon with CO2. The tig kit is on order. Still need a leather hood, but i'm sure ebay can supply that.

Also found a stainless supplier with a waterjet cutter and an orbital welder. So if I cant learn in time he can do robotic sanitry welds.

Now to hook up the relay boards to labview for the first time.

 

[yardy]

Also asked about getting a crash course in welding, and they mentioned one local bloke in particular that is said to be the best. So should be able to get a personal welding trainer no probs.

it's a piece of piss that welding lark, you should be right to go after one lesson, especially since the bloke is the best in the bay ( summer bay...)

 

[Bandito]

It probably has about the same population as summer bay. So the best may be the best out of 10 . but thanks for the encouragement. I'm sure it will take much longer than that though, but at least I have bitten the bullet and am on the way. Welding is the pinacle of manly stuff. Its controlled lightening afterall!

Actually today they said that the blokes in the shed of the supply place could show me, but time is a slight issue. Thats why I went to this local place, to be able to get the support. Its also good to put some money back into the local businesses - I did beat them down as much as possible, but was still a bit over priced. But I'll get it back in support and contacts.

I been installing the driver for the usb to serial port tonight, and it seemed to have worked. Then went to test a 12V power supply before wiring it into the PIC relay board, only to find all my multimeters were dead. Luckily I had a stock of 12V 1/2 AAA batteries in the electronics cupboard to replace it with. The voltage of the transformer was way too much - like 17 volts, so it seems I need a voltage regulator. Luckily, I had two voltage regulator kits in the cupboard and another one around somewhere, but cant find it after a few drinks. So am about to solder one up. Cant find my usual soldering irons either, but did find a new unopened one in the bottom of a box. I have been stockpiling heaps of kits and components over the years - I have a whole room dedicated to electronics stuff. Even have pin diodes from 10 years ago for a planned RF project. Now only if I can find a use for the cro this weekend my life will almost be complete. Been making circuits for the last 13 years, but havent done much in the last 12 months, so its good to get back into the swing of things and dust off all the old equipment and unwrap the unused stuff for the first time (even if it is a few years old).

The main aim of this weekend is to get the pich valves going. Inparticular, the normally closed ones. While I was able to get the normally open ones going with an increased opening, the NC ones need a bit more voltage to actuate with the increased opening. I didnt want to try this without the automated relays. So I plan to actuate at perhaps 16V for 0.25 seconds using one relay, then activate another relay at about 6 volts and turn off the first. This should allow it to actuate, then leave it with enough power to remain actuated but not overheat or fry from the momentary 16V surge. Better get back to it. I only have one spare of each type to fry!

 

[bill_gill85]

The main aim of this weekend is to get the pich valves going. Inparticular, the normally closed ones. While I was able to get the normally open ones going with an increased opening, the NC ones need a bit more voltage to actuate with the increased opening. I didnt want to try this without the automated relays. So I plan to actuate at perhaps 16V for 0.25 seconds using one relay, then activate another relay at about 6 volts and turn off the first. This should allow it to actuate, then leave it with enough power to remain actuated but not overheat or fry from the momentary 16V surge. Better get back to it. I only have one spare of each type to fry!

Bandito, I only just thought, Wouldn't the internal pressure of the pinch valve assist with opening? Have you tried them under the expected pressure?
Anyway I hope you don't let out any magic smoke on the weekend.

Ben

 

[Bandito]

After all weekend and each night this week I only just got labview to write to the serial port! Seems my 8.0 install was dodgy. Installing 8.5 fixed it. So this weekends goal will be to automate a valve <_< .

Bandito, I only just thought, Wouldn't the internal pressure of the pinch valve assist with opening? Have you tried them under the expected pressure?
Anyway I hope you don't let out any magic smoke on the weekend.

Ben

Yea, but only dealing with about 1 meter head height so thats only 1psi. The springy properties of the silicon tube plays a massive role in the pinch valve working, and is designed to balance the pressure of the spring inside the solenoid. Could put up some pics of the internals if you like.

 

[Silo Ted]

This might be getting a bit ahead of the game, but can you explain to me your proposal for an automated hops delivery system? I cant be bothered reading through 33 pages again, but was it some sort of automatic pet-feeder?

 

[Bandito]

Click the bottom picture to view the Video. First time I tested it, and it did take a few goes with the impromptu setup. As I suspected, the tablet dispenser does need to be at an angle greater than 90 degrees. Its a medi-alert tablet dispenser, still trying to find another one on ebay.

The setup will be similar, but the dispensers will be inside a car fridge. I doubt it will be chilled, the main aim is probably just to protect the hops from vapor and heat in the short term. There will be a largish hose in the lower corner with an actuated flap on it to seal the car fridge. The largish hose will be steep and stop short of the kettle, and the hops and whirlfloc will freeball the last bit under their own momentum to fall into the wort. Of course, might just make a flap in the kettle lid - still to decide.

VIDEO BELOW: CLICK TO VIEW>>


On a side note, I'm building a second dedicated computer specifically for the brewery. Will be recieving the few parts I need tomorrow, which, in conjuction with the ample spares I have lying around will make up a full pc. quite slow, but should cut the mustard and at least I wont break it by stuffing around like I do with my main pc.

 

[manticle]

Just a suggestion -

People who deal with computers and spreadsheets and modelling programs often seem (in my experience) to make things much more complicated than they need to be. Just because it works theoretically, doesn't mean it is the best solution.

I say this as someone who has to interpret exhibition designers in practical terms but I'll warrant that builders find the same with architects, electricians with electrical engineers etc etc, ad nauseaum.

All I'm suggesting is a bit of non-specific advice - find the simplest method to do things rather than the seemingly most clever and make sure it works efficiently at the job it's supposed to do. Don't get wrapped up in the genius of the project as the genius things are those that do what they are supposed to do and do it well. Look at penicillin - a bit of mould which saved potentially millions of lives. I'm sure there's loads of examples of very complex schedules/structures/concepts which are genius but I bet most of them are the simplest version available. Streamline your ideas.

I'll go back to drawing a dead mouse now.

 

[Bandito]

I agree! I have reciently realised how much simpler it would be to make a fully automated biab brewery. I wish I could turn back time and go that route, but I passed the point of no return when I purchased the butterfly valves. After this is finnished, I'll attempt it with the spares. Geared motors have ecentric shafts on them that are not in the center of the motor - perfect for a homebrew pinch valve.

Oh to have the time again.

 

[Silo Ted]

That's not a device that I am familiar with. Is there a moving platform under each compartment that thrusts forward to expel the contents, or is it air driven, or just motion driven by shifting quicly to the next bit? If that is being used for hop pellets, what is the capacity of each compartment, and is the thing going to be geared via computer to rotate between positions depending on a recipe. A rough count guesses 28. Sounds like a pain in the bum, even if I ont quite get what youre thinking. .

The human element is that you would have to engage that crazy looking device into place to start with, from a coolroom storage with preloaded hops, and thus removing an automation aspect, makes me think that you could just as easily go for three hop hoppers and preload them at the start of the process.

Not familiar with the mechanics or the electonics, but I have been thinking about an auto hopper where the hops are stored in a bottomless cup, sealed by gravity with a computer CD tray in the open position. The ridge/lip would be ground off and a thin sheet of aluminium would sit atop the tray, of which the cup full of hops would be held back. At a defined time in the process, the tray would close, sending the pellets down their merry way via a ramp and into the boil. You could set up three of these contraptions for bitter, flavour, aroma at times specified by the recipe, and they would release themselves into the boil where required. Of course you would need to preload each hop hopper, but that's no big deal, no more trouble than hooking up your crazy spaceship.

Do you have a working system that produces beer by manual labour, with decent results, and then basing your automation on those principals? I am considering a semi-automation of the single vessel system, eventually. Its going to be one or two new additions to an existing process over time, and lots of observations. Your approach seems to take out that learning curve.

 

[Silo Ted]

I took my sweet time in responding so I missed the comments before.

I have reciently realised how much simpler it would be to make a fully automated biab brewery.

Can you share, what were some of your ideas towards that route? I have a few ideas up my sleeve, some of which were spoken about in another thread in the gear section. Basically looking towards a set & forget four-hour duration. Load grain, water and hop hoppers, push a big red button and go back to bed. An alarm goes off that tells me I need to transfer boiling wort to a cube, then I clean the gear up, and that's another brew-day done. I can spend more time cultivating big healthy starters instead.

All I'm suggesting is a bit of non-specific advice - find the simplest method to do things rather than the seemingly most clever and make sure it works efficiently at the job it's supposed to do. Don't get wrapped up in the genius of the project as the genius things are those that do what they are supposed to do and do it well

Bloody oath. If you wish to automate something, find the solution to each step that is the simplest you can get away with, and one that requires no constant maintenance. As long as it saves human hours during the process. Theres no point building some whizz-bang automated system that takes an hour to rig up in order for it to work without human interaction saving you only 45 minutes of real time

 

[Bandito]

That's not a device that I am familiar with. Is there a moving platform under each compartment that thrusts forward to expel the contents, or is it air driven, or just motion driven by shifting quicly to the next bit? If that is being used for hop pellets, what is the capacity of each compartment, and is the thing going to be geared via computer to rotate between positions depending on a recipe. A rough count guesses 28. Sounds like a pain in the bum, even if I ont quite get what youre thinking. .

The human element is that you would have to engage that crazy looking device into place to start with, from a coolroom storage with preloaded hops, and thus removing an automation aspect, makes me think that you could just as easily go for three hop hoppers and preload them at the start of the process.

Not familiar with the mechanics or the electonics, but I have been thinking about an auto hopper where the hops are stored in a bottomless cup, sealed by gravity with a computer CD tray in the open position. The ridge/lip would be ground off and a thin sheet of aluminium would sit atop the tray, of which the cup full of hops would be held back. At a defined time in the process, the tray would close, sending the pellets down their merry way via a ramp and into the boil. You could set up three of these contraptions for bitter, flavour, aroma at times specified by the recipe, and they would release themselves into the boil where required. Of course you would need to preload each hop hopper, but that's no big deal, no more trouble than hooking up your crazy spaceship.

Do you have a working system that produces beer by manual labour, with decent results, and then basing your automation on those principals? I am considering a semi-automation of the single vessel system, eventually. Its going to be one or two new additions to an existing process over time, and lots of observations. Your approach seems to take out that learning curve.

Its too late to answer all your questions tinight, but some answers are below:

Its controlled with a dc motor with some sensors. Some pics>
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=38885

[URL="http://&quot;http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38886&quot;"]http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;id=38886[/URL]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38887

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38888

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38889

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&id=38890

 

[Zizzle]

Not familiar with the mechanics or the electonics, but I have been thinking about an auto hopper where the hops are stored in a bottomless cup, sealed by gravity with a computer CD tray in the open position. The ridge/lip would be ground off and a thin sheet of aluminium would sit atop the tray, of which the cup full of hops would be held back. At a defined time in the process, the tray would close, sending the pellets down their merry way via a ramp and into the boil. You could set up three of these contraptions for bitter, flavour, aroma at times specified by the recipe, and they would release themselves into the boil where required. Of course you would need to preload each hop hopper, but that's no big deal, no more trouble than hooking up your crazy spaceship.

HERMAN by ArnieW:

inspired my brewbot hop dropper:

I found that I had to mount it all in a plastic box with positive pressure from a computer fan to stop steam affecting the hops (also helps the hops get out). Also tried plastic cups, but the taper sometimes caused the hops to get stuck. So straight PCV was the go.


Here is a video of it in action when empty: