Force carbonation: lots of head pressure, still flat beer

[Zorco]

About 40 psi on top for 8 days and the beer pours flat.* Full keg. Weird, so I drank a few pints and pressurised again. Week 2 and same result.

It is an English strong brown ale, 7.2% ABV, Maris otter Simpsons black Gladfields light chocolate.

Nothing totally unconventional for this to occur I would think.

When I released head pressure there was plenty of gas purged.

I don't know what prevented it to dissolve yet. Would like some ideas please gents.

* a very tiny amount of CO2 in the beer, if I drop the beer 20cm into the bottom of a glass then I can develop a bit of head, but it fades quickly.

Yours Truly Confused,

Zorco

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Very weird! When you pull the release valve does the gas rush out like it's properly getting into the keg?

I only had this problem once when my regulator indicated good pressure but a dodgy line splitter was not delivering gas into the keg (hence it did not carb up).

 

[Judanero]

Could you try dropping the temp lower in the fridge and see if that makes a difference? Sounds like a weird problem, are you sure there's no leaks on keg?

Not really a solution but you could also get a 10 mL syringe to suck up the beer in your glass and pump it back in, makes for an almost nitro-esque creamy head that goes lovely in stouts and browns if they're under carbed..

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50906

 

[Grott]

I'd say it's over carbonated, 40psi for 8 days?!! Set and forget is normally 7 to 8 days at serving pressure. Disconnect gas, release pressure in keg, wait an hour or so and if further pressure in the keg then this could be the answer. Check by pour a beer, if still flat release a bit more gas.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

^agree 12-14 psi should have done the trick for that length of time.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Assuming you mean connected to 40psi for 8 days? Then yeah that would get over carbonated. Charging a keg headspace with 40 psi and left wont get anywhere near carbonated. Hope I'm not making a wasted comment there forgive me if I am...

What is the FG? Heavy body beers, high gravity, high alc can always seem lower carb to me given the same conditioning as say sessionable beers. It can seem hard to raise the carbonation without going overboard. I just accept that's the way the beer is supposed to be, its taken its absorbable level of co2 and doesn't like to go any higher.

 

[Grott]

Ha ha see you take on this Danscraftbeer, if 40psi left in head space for 8 days and not connect for 8 days then flat it would be. Zorco some pay back here, you need to use some viagra on this brew.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

:blush: I'm not sure what's going on here but we'll get to the bottom of it. This forum always does.

I'll re-vouch for the set and forget connected to ~12psi/serving pressure. Chilled, 7 days its done.
Longer conditioning under these conditions being the polish.
Last beers served from the keg are the best usually. Only because its the longest conditioning etc....

 

[Zorco]

Cheers for all this guys.

I hit it hard at 40 as I want to drive the gas in and sample throughout the week, usually until carbonation is where I want it and then bring her back to nominal pressures. It gives me a feel for how fast different beers accept the CO2.

It wasn't just a burst, i see the reg's LP reading before I go to dispense and it is at the 40 still.

Love the nitro-esque idea!

Dodgy reg is on my radar for sure. But when I release pressure to dispense it rushes the feck out like it should at 40.

It isn't getting in.

Crazy thoughts get into my head like..."BOC didn't fill this CO2 cylinder with CO2". Massive emphasis on that not being the likely outcome.

Temperature, that is a sore point. I don't have a single thermometer that I trust explicitly. I want a reference thermometer.
Thermapen, yes.... don't hate me, I'm gunna join the cult.

I'll try and drop 3 degrees tonight under the same pressure and see what happens.

Yours sensually with Viagra

Zorco

Edit: F 1016

 

[Quokka42]

What temperature is it at now?

Thermopen is a bit of an expensive answer to a simple problem. Get a bunch of cheap electronic thermometers off ebay, better if you have one good glass thermometer to check them against, but you can check them against each other. I have a long laboratory type glass one these days that is also good for stirring fines or starters if I am too lazy to grab the glass rod.

 

[Zorco]

I have two kegs of the same beer at 2.8 degC according to an STC1000 calibrated to an Omron PID with a PT100 probe. Both benched against a fertility thermometer from a few years ago. Gotta be ±3degC in range...but who knows for sure. I did check them against eachother, with probes all zip tied together and they don't land at the same point across a range from 20 to 0 degC, and don't arrive at steady state at the same rate, so deltas change depending on where the frig orion is in the outer mood of uranus... tee hee hee.

I like the glass lab version idea. I had one when I first started brewing 6 years ago. I'll order one now - why not.

My reg PRV lets go at about 48psi and I've driven it up that high before with this keg.

I've never carbonated another beer with this gas cylinder.. she's a spankers newby.


Yours thermal-accuracy impotent

Zorco.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Glass ones are good I've had a couple but keep breaking the darn things (I'm clumsy).. So I've reverted to a plastic digital cooking job now.

 

[Brewno Marz]

Partial pressures & physics - it should be overcarbonated. Universal reset...turn it off then on again. Or it's operator error!

 

[Quokka42]

People often get bamboozled by the digits and decimal points on digital thermometers and don't know how to apply the accuracy figures, but it looks like Zorco is on top of it. Ironically, even a cheap glass thermometer tends to be more accurate over it's range as the physics is quite simple - i.e. hard for even the Chinese to stuff up.

I find when slow carbonating a heavy beer the top tends to be carbonated while the bottom stays quite flat. I would suggest giving the keg a rock or a roll with the cylinder turned off and see if the pressure drops.

Another possibility is that the beer is at the low end of the scope of error and just isn't fizzing because it is too cold. Warm a glass in your hand and give it a swirl or stir to check for this.

 

[Zorco]

Operator error, operator mistake, operator stupidity, operator ignorance... certainty is among those.

I usually make the effort to evade classic and quantum physics, then execute a universal reset only to look at some ****ies.

This one is real so far though.

Watching the beer warm does not show the release of the subversive CO2 bank balance an Antarctic beer should enjoy.

Will drop 3 degC and shake.

I'll video this tonight for evidence of the before, before the after.


Yours Newtonianly true

Zorco

 

[Danscraftbeer]

You may just have one of those exotic higher level beers that need longer conditioning.
Pretty sure some of the best craft brews go by this inevitability.

 

[themonkeysback]

Cheers for all this guys.

I hit it hard at 40 as I want to drive the gas in and sample throughout the week, usually until carbonation is where I want it and then bring her back to nominal pressures. It gives me a feel for how fast different beers accept the CO2.

It wasn't just a burst, i see the reg's LP reading before I go to dispense and it is at the 40 still.

Love the nitro-esque idea!

Dodgy reg is on my radar for sure. But when I release pressure to dispense it rushes the feck out like it should at 40.

It isn't getting in.

Crazy thoughts get into my head like..."BOC didn't fill this CO2 cylinder with CO2". Massive emphasis on that not being the likely outcome.

Temperature, that is a sore point. I don't have a single thermometer that I trust explicitly. I want a reference thermometer.
Thermapen, yes.... don't hate me, I'm gunna join the cult.

I'll try and drop 3 degrees tonight under the same pressure and see what happens.

Yours sensually with Viagra

Zorco

Edit: F 1016

I think it is going to be overcarbed for sure. Dropping the temp is just going to make the overcarbonation worse and mean you have to purge more gas later. If it is rushing out of the tap then gas is getting in and will be in the beer. Seems counterintuitive with a flat seeming beer I know but I am confident this will be your problem. I would take it off the gas and purge it frequently for a day or two (or leave the prv open) then set and forget at a lower pressure. Not a fast solution, but the most likely to work.

Adam.

 

[Grott]

Disconnect gas, release pressure in keg, wait an hour or so and if further pressure in the keg then this could be the answer. Check by pour a beer, if still flat release a bit more gas.

Did you try this simple test to confirm possible over carbonation or to confirm co2 may not being absorbed? personally would have done this before chasing temperatures, regs etc.
Sometimes over thinking can be the long way to resolve a problem.

 

[mr_wibble]

I think you have a leak.

Go over every join & junction with soapy water, including manifolds, etc.

Turn your gas off.

The next day, pull the pressure-release on your keg(s). At 40psi (275 KPa) it should sound like a rocket launch.
I know I've got a leak when stuff doesn't carbonate property.

 

[Grott]

A leak is possible but I would have thought 40psi over 8 days you wouldn't have any gas left or at least notice.