First lager seems to have been a disaster - is it worth it?

[Seeker]

I've been doing AG English ales about a year and mostly really happy, as I'm getting cask ale that's better than anything locally availble. I've only had one disaster where I got the water wrong and ended up with nothing like beer.

So I just tried a Czech pilsner, and what a pain in the arse it's been.

I followed best practices (I think) while keeping it simple - single step mash.

It's come out with an awful sickly taste - not exactly sweet, but sickly.

I mashed about 67c for two hours (might have been more actually).

Kept at 10c for 4 weeks then transferred to keg fridge at about 8c for two weeks. Racked to keg with high hopes of a Budvar like stunner and it tasted horrible. I thought diacetyl after reading on here, so left at 20c for a week, and it's maybe better but still nasty.

Also got chill haze that bad it's greeny-yellow!

Can this be saved?

Makes me wonder if lager is worth the bother, as bottle shop lager is almost as good as keg lager anyway.

The buggers holding up my line now, and sneering at me when i go in the garage.

 

[manticle]

Diacetyl rest needs healthy active yeast. Racking to keg reduces yeast contact.
If you still have the beer, make a big healthy yeast starter and add it as it starts to foam. Taste every few days, when sickliness is reduced/gone, reduce temp to 2-4 deg and leave for a few weeks. Rack again to another keg.

For future lagers, pitch at least double the amount of yeast you would for ales (healthy, in date, fresh) and oxygenate really well.

Can be worth it, as much for the challenge as the beer itself.

 

[Diesel80]

The only lagers I have made I have mashed lower for a drier finish.
64 deg or thereabouts.

67 seems a good idea for a mid strength beer but could be sweet if a full strength grain bill.
Or is 67 you Mash In temp (which will then drop a couple of deg?).

Sounds like diacetyl or its nasty sibling (does it taste like honey at all?).

What yeast and how much of it?

Cheers,
D80

Edit: I have tried Manticles suggestion on a previous batch. It improved it. Not 100% but I was able to drink it without shuddering.

 

[Seeker]

I used Budvar Wyeast, and still have it - 19lt keg and 5 Schwepps bottles,

I did pitch more than for an ale, but probably not twice as much maybe 1.5 litre? Grain was 6kg for 25 litres I think, so pretty high.

Maybe it does taste a bit like honey actually, not really butterscotch or sugary, but a sickly, eaten too much ice cream kind of experience.

Should I do the same as before with the starter - I seem to recall someone pitching dry yeast to fix this?

 

[paulyman]

My first lager last year finished to sweet for my liking. Pretty sure I under pitched, I thought I was fine but guess not.

Just completed a Premium American Lager and a RyPL ( Rye IPL). Increased the pitch rate over my last batch to be safe and these are absolutely delicious! Well worth the time and effort.

Had a blonde ale that I got impatient with before these lagers and probably put it in the keg a bit early. Diaceytl bomb, pulled it out of the fridge and added 2 teaspoons of table sugar and gently roused the yeast twice a day for a week and released pressure twice a day. Still wasn't great but was at least drinkable with only a hint of diaceytl.

 

[Seeker]

If it's only ever going to be just drinkable I'd rather tip it and get on with ales (just read a thread that mentioned this lager method using S-189 which may be the go next time)

I have enough challenges right now , that's why I need the beer! :chug:

 

[kaiserben]

I'm currently making a dunkel. My first proper lager with correct ferment temps. It's just had its diacetyl rest and will get lagered from next Wednesday (when fridge space permits).

I tasted a gravity sample just before the diacetyl rest and it was freakin' amazing and looked fairly clear as well. I couldn't be happier with how it's progressing.
(and in the complete opposite to the OP's scenario, I did a run of English bitters that just never reached the heights I expected)

For the lager I did a step mash:

40.0 C for 15 min
50.0 C for 30 min
63.0 C for 30 min
68.0 C for 30 min
72.0 C for 20 min
77.0 C for 20 min mash out.

Most importantly IMO I'd created a yeast starter to allow me to pitch the recommended 425bn yeast cells of WLP830. I also aerated with pure O2.

Did you pitch enough yeast for a lager?

EDIT: And also, isn't 67C single step mash likely to make something a little sweet? (if you look at my mash schedule the main sacch rests are 30 mins at 63C and 30 mins at 68C, which is going to produce a very different beer to all at 67C).

ANOTHER EDIT: Did you not do a diacetyl rest?

Just saw you pitched a 1.5L starter. For a lager batch that used 6kg grain you were probably still way under. (dunno that this would cause sickly sweetness, more likely to get fruity, estery flavours I reckon). My pitch was a 2-step starter with the second step at 2.5L (and I was only using 5kg grain in 23L batch size).

 

[Blind Dog]

Up to you, but surely its a decent excuse for a 2nd fermentation chamber? Can't be going around tipping beer just because its taking too long. If you follow Manticle's advice then if it is a diacetyl problem it should be solved and there's no real reason why the beer shouldn't be fine. It is isn't diacetyl, then it'll likely be feeding the lawn.

Personally, I only brew lagers when I have full kegs.

 

[Seeker]

Thanks guys - will do the above.

My mistake was transferring to keg without doing proper checks first. It's been the case with ales that they have been ordinary in the fermenter but once racked and cleared turn out great. Kit wise I wasn't really ready either as I only have one keg (picking up another 25l keg today)

I'll try the temperature control techniques for my next one I think.

 

[Seeker]

ANOTHER EDIT: Did you not do a diacetyl rest?

Sort of, but after kegging, so as Manticle said, my yeast my have been not good enough.

I do actually have a bottle of the beer that has loads of yeast in the bottom - maybe that could have fixed itself and could be used as gauge for how well repitching my turn out.

 

[kaiserben]

Possibly a silly question, but what was your FG? (actually what was your OG and FG?) Could it be that it didn't ferment out all the way?


And my fermentation process (which incorporates elements from that Brulosophy quick lager method that you linked to) is:

Got my 1.054 wort down to 10C before pitching yeast.
Held at 10C until it had about 67% attenuated (was at 1.021 after about 1 week)
Then raised by 1C/day until temp was at 18C. (so that takes 1 week)
Held at 18C until it fermentation is complete. (slightly less than 1 week)
Then crash chill 3c/day till it's 2C.
Hold at 2C for about 1 week.
Then transfer to keg or bottling bucket.

About 4 weeks all up.

 

[fraser_john]

There is no doubt, lagers are a challenge, you need more patience, more skill (harder to hide flaws), more prep work (multiple step ups of yeast depending on OG), more gear (extra regulator for higher pressure pours, lagering fridge, another controller maybe) etc etc. But when it is a 30c day and you are sitting in the shade with a cold lager that you nailed, it is a good feeling and well worth it.

 

[roblivo]

Hey Guys, I too have just gone back to trying a lager after my first attempt was too sweet. It was drinkable but not dry enough to make me want another glass. I put this down to under-pitching as I only put in one smack pack for a 25L batch.

I have a different disaster this time around. I pitched a massive starter, fermented at 10 degrees and all was going great but when I check on the batch on day 3 I accidentally left the temperature probe on the outside of the fridge so it dropped the temp down to 2 degrees for a day! ... now I'm concerned that all my yeast will have dropped out and I'm going to get under attenuation problems.

I have since risen it back up to 10 degrees and given the fermenter a swirl to hopefully reactivate the yeast. Do you think this will be enough or is there something else I could be doing to save it?

Cheers, Rob

 

[mje1980]

Should be ok. I'd rather it drop down low than get way high temp wise.

 

[danestead]

Yeah as requested above, what was the OG and FG. While you are at it, what were the calculated IBU's?

You say you pitched 1.5L of yeast. When you say that, what do you actually mean? 1.5L of slurry? A 1.5L starter? If you are able to give us an indication of the calculated amount of yeast in Billions it will help with diagnosis.

 

[warra48]

Pilsner Malt has an inherent sweet character.
Mashing at 67ºC? Forget it. Try 63ºC for 90 minutes or longer.
And make sure you pitch a truck load of healthy yeast. At least twice what you use for an ale.
Pitch plenty and cold, and be patient.

 

[danestead]

Pilsner Malt has an inherent sweet character.
Mashing at 67ºC? Forget it. Try 63ºC for 90 minutes or longer.
And make sure you pitch a truck load of healthy yeast. At least twice what you use for an ale.
Pitch plenty and cold, and be patient.

The top rated czech/boh pils in the recipe database mashes at 68 im pretty sure. Ive brewed that and it turned out very nice indeed. Finished at 1.014 from memory.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Just relating to the first post. I'm disappointed with brewing lagers too. All the extra effort and research and careful handling etc to do everything right and it all seemed to brew correctly. Not slow at all. Temp control and lagering literally doubles my electricity bill. For beer that's not as good as my ales. Not having a whinge. I will do them again next winter when it doesn't cost so much of a fortune in electricity just for the challenge. . Mine is drinkable but me being the judge its ermmm, ok.

 

[Blind Dog]

I don't get the mash low advice. Bo Pils is not a dry thin beer, it's a fine balance between malty goodness and a high hop bitterness with a fair bit of body. 67 or even a bit higher for a single infusion mash should be absolutely fine.

 

[antiphile]

There is no doubt, lagers are a challenge, you need more patience, more skill (harder to hide flaws)

FWIW (which is bugger all) I agree with Fraser_John and Chris Graham that Czech Pilsner is one of the hardest styles to brew really well because there is no way to hide any flaws. You really have to be at the top of your game, use the very best and freshest ingredients (including a careful yeast choice), and you certainly benefit from decoction mashing.

Now I feel I can consistently brew a drinkable BoPils, but less than 50% of them would be good enough for a competition IMHO.

Good luck.