Fire Extinguisher Co2 Bottle

[dallas]

justin, do you run your valve/head in the on position permanetnly?

I'm wondering if turning it on/off regularly may contribute to the leak issue?


D

 

[Uncle Fester]

All,
What is the legality of filling one of these? My Father in law (an ex fire fighter) may be able to get hold of an in-date decomissioned fire extinguisher. Is there any problem filling them? or do you have to do something "shifty", and go to a shonky operator?
M

 

[dallas]

I gas up using the Ross Method and then when the serving pressure starts to drop give it a squirt of co2 to top it up. I used to gas up at 300 for a couple of days but I wouldnt leave the handle locked, I would just top the gas back up to 300 each morning and night.

can you give me any more info on the 'ross' method??

mate, your about 8 kegs ahead of me... i'm only just trying to start kegging, so everything's new to me! :huh:


D

 

[KillerRx4]

Yeah I noticed when i first got mine it leaked out the valve under the handle. I took it back & the guy replaced the valve.
It was good for a week or 2 & then started to leak again so I figure its a common thing.

I dont leave it on anyway. For carbonating i give it 300kpa initially, next morning squirt it to 300 again, that arvo another squirt to 300, next morning again etc.

Around 2-3 days its done.

To dispense I give it around 50kpa & every few days it needs a small squirt to bump it back to 50.

 

[Justin]

Nothing dodgey in filling them, you just have to find someone that is happy to do it for you. It's usually a case of the blokes can't be stuffed. Just the dip tube has to be removed (very simple operation and the bloke will do it in 2 mins), bottle has to be empty of course.

Dallas, I do both depending on what I'm doing and the mood I'm in and how many kegs are in the fridge. If there is enough room for the bottle in the fridge then I hook it up to the kegs and often leave it on. If it wont fit in there then I'll just top up the keg pressures as needed. I also do a lot of other stuff with it like purging kegs and pushing beer between kegs under CO2 pressure so my valve has been cycled on and off HEAPS. I probably should test it to see if it's leaking but it's serving me well in this way. Also leave it on when carbonating.

Where are you from Dallas? If your in Melbourne I'd talk to Grain and Grape, as they have a nice deal with Air liquide. If your elsewhere then your in the same boat as everyone else. Goliaths used to also sell a 1.5kg bottle if you wanted to go that way (still have to find somewhere to fill it though).

Cheers, Justin

 

[Jye]

The Ross Method

 

[dallas]

Where are you from Dallas? If your in Melbourne I'd talk to Grain and Grape, as they have a nice deal with Air liquide. If your elsewhere then your in the same boat as everyone else. Goliaths used to also sell a 1.5kg bottle if you wanted to go that way (still have to find somewhere to fill it though).

Cheers, Justin

[post="76568"][/post]​

thanks Justin... i'm in wollongong, so G&G is out of the question... a few mobs sell bottles for around the $250 (like this place: http://www.mykegonlegs.com.au/co2Cylinders.html) but again, can pick up a fire ext. for sub $150 filled, so still persuing this option... either way there's no way i'm renting... :angry:

at this stage dunno what option to go with... when i finish my bar reno's in about 2-3 wks, i'll have hopefully decided on what option to go with and take the plunge... a nice keg system should defo help me christen the bar! :chug: :beer:


D

 

[Linz]

Dallas,

There is a new operator on the market with and exchange program. You purchase a 9kg(approx) for $300 and take it back to HBS and swap. Saw this at Hop to it at Botany. I think the mob was called "my keg on legs"???
2ndly if the spindle of the extinguisher valve is well lubricated on removal of the dip tube/spear and again at pressure testing the issue of leaking "should" be nullified.

 

[Thunderlips]

I gas up using the Ross Method

[post="76560"][/post]​

The Ross Method.
I wonder if this will make it into a chapter in some new home brew book?

 

[dallas]

Dallas,

There is a new operator on the market with and exchange program. You purchase a 9kg(approx) for $300 and take it back to HBS and swap. Saw this at Hop to it at Botany. I think the mob was called "my keg on legs"???
2ndly if the spindle of the extinguisher valve is well lubricated on removal of the dip tube/spear and again at pressure testing the issue of leaking "should" be nullified.

[post="76693"][/post]​

thanks linz... ya, actually put up their link in my previous post!... they are my fall back position if I can't convince myself to get a exting... i'm 90% sold on it, except the leaking issue of it... prob just an overcautious keggine newbie! :huh:

mmm.... So your saying that if I get the handle components well lubricated then it shouldn't leak? have you tried this and have been successfull??


D

 

[Uncle Fester]

a bit of playing around with my regulator and the types of extinguisher heads (valves) revealed that he could order me in a head to suit the fire extinguisher in which the regulator would screw straight on to the head unit with out the need to manufacture a brass adapter. The head has written on it an identifying code: SV50-C

[post="17051"][/post]​

Justin,
What are the relative merits of connecting your reg to the head of the extinguisher (and the apparent possibility of the handle leaking), versus replacing the whole assembly with a needle valve? Would this now make the bottle hard to fill?

Needle valve for fire extinguisher

For $30, it would seem to me that the whole shebang is now just like a normal bottle and reg. Am I looking at this too simplistically?

M

 

[Justin]

Hi M,

When I took my reg into the fire extinguisher place to discuss what I wanted to do and to find a bottle (he refurbishes them) the guy just wandered around testing the fit of the reg to the different bottles and valves he had around the work shop. One fit directly on to a Fireguard brand head/valve. He didn't know the history or functionality of the valve he found so suggested he order me in a brand new one so I was starting fresh. I think the head cost about $40-$50, 5kg aluminium bottle was about the same and then some money for the CO2 (can't remember the exact price).

Now, as for the needle valve idea that may or may not work. I have no doubts the idea itself is fine but if you've got a fire extinguisher bloke that is even remotely hesitant about making a CO2 bottle out of a fire extinguisher for you then I guarantee he will not fill a bottle with some strange valve tacked onto it. You would have to ask sosman how he went with getting this bottle filled, I suspect everyones chances of getting it filled will be different. But if the right extinguisher head exists that accepts a reg directly why would you want to mess around fitting needle valves etc, as I said mine works flawlessly. If it ever leaks and I have to replace it I'm not too fussed to be honest but I don't expect it to leak. I suggest you talk to a couple of different fire extinguisher blokes, perhaps one will be happy to fit this kind of valve to a bottle-if he is then your set-if not he might have another idea to help. You really have to talk to them to see what they are willing to do for you. A six pack of your best homebrew can be a nice gift with very persuassive abilities. Never underestimate the connection between man and beer :beer: .

Edit: removed unnecessary photos. If you want to see them go to the first post of this thread.

 

[ausdb]

What are the relative merits of connecting your reg to the head of the extinguisher (and the apparent possibility of the handle leaking), versus replacing the whole assembly with a needle valve? Would this now make the bottle hard to fill?

Needle valve for fire extinguisher

For $30, it would seem to me that the whole shebang is now just like a normal bottle and reg. Am I looking at this too simplistically?

Take this page with a BIG grain of salt, the author seems to have forgotten that ALL valves on pressure cylinders must have some sort of relief valve/burst disc built in to them. His needle valve idea conveniently eliminates this and now turns the cylinder into a hydrostatic bomb. I have contacted him in the past suggesting that his info is not really in the best interest of the general public but it still there

There is no way an extinguisher company would fill a cylinder fitted with a valve like he has done.

Cheers ausdb

 

[Uncle Fester]

Justin,
I have already sourced a local fire extinguisher place that also fills standard CO2 bottles. They may want to pressure test the beastie if it is close to date, but after that, they see no problem with the unit being treated as a standard bottle. I assume that the needle valve would for all intents and purposes simulate the neck fitting for a standard CO2 bottle.

For the $20.00 that they ask for a pressure test, I may bite the bullet, and get 6 years worth of insuance with the first fill anyway.

Thanks,

M

 

[Justin]

He He. I went back to the first post to read what's been said so far and low and behold, I wrote this post with pics Whoops.

Forget the needle valve idea as I suggested above, Ausdb just nailed the cruncher on that idea. I didn't pick up on it but with the needle valve you have NO WAY of bleeding off while filling the bottle. In my photos of my cylinder head you can see the bleed valve/screw at the back under the handle. You've got to have one of these for a proper CO2 fill or you wont end up with much CO2.

What they MAY be able to do is fit a "conventional" CO2 bottle valve to your extinguisher bottle but I have looked closely at the two and they don't appear to be compatible in the thread diameter that screws into the bottle neck (but perhaps there is a wide selection of different threads on conventional CO2 bottle valves, so perhaps they can get one to fit).

Best take the Extinguisher guys advice, not ours. Seems like you've already got it sorted.

Cheers, Justin

 

[Boots]

My extinguisher leaks a lot and I have to give the handle a few squirts to get it to stop. I never leave it on constantly, only giving it a burst to bring the keg back up to pressure.

It's progressed to the point now where it leaks almost all the time, but it behaves really strangely ... i.e. if i leave teh reg at say 15psi, the cylinder keeps the pressure (the leak goes through the reg rather than through the handle pin), and once the keg is at pressure it doesn't leak. If i turn the reg off, it leaks out around the pin.

The mob i bought the cylinder from have replaced the pin / valve assembly twice now so it might just be time for a new head.

 

[user 384]

I must be lucky. I haven't had any leaks with my fire extinguisher. I usually force carbonate using the rocking method, but while I'm serving I just depress the handle and put the pin in to keep it open. I leave it on like this for hours at a time no worries, and have even forgot about it and not turned it off for a couple of days.

Cheers
MAH

 

[ausdb]

Forget the needle valve idea as I suggested above, Ausdb just nailed the cruncher on that idea. I didn't pick up on it but with the needle valve you have NO WAY of bleeding off while filling the bottle. In my photos of my cylinder head you can see the bleed valve/screw at the back under the handle. You've got to have one of these for a proper CO2 fill or you wont end up with much CO2.

Justin, I'm not so worried about a bleed valve. Its the lack of safety relief which is downright foolish. All of the AL/BOC CO2 botttles dont have a bleed valve but they do have something in them that will vent pressure safely if the bottle gets overpressured in any way. Even CO2 extinguisher bottles have a relief valve/burst valve built into the handle/valve

Plus you dont need a bleed valve to fill a cylinder

Cheers ausdb

 

[Justin]

Cool banana's Ausdb if that's how it is then that's how it is, I'm no gas expert. I was of the understanding that in order to fill a bottle with "liquid" gas you needed to bleed the head space of gas in the receiving vessel to lower the pressure slightly allowing liquid to flow into the new vessel and fill from the bottom up. I didn't think you could just crank up the pressure and force it in like you do with a Scuba tank or compressed air tank. The reason behind this was because you can't compress a liquid and while transfering if you keep it cold enough with pressure on top of the liquid it remained a in liquid state thus giving you a larger fill.

This is how they do LPG cylinders and CO2 cyclinders as far as I'm aware. However, I could be wrong. It really is of little importance how they do it anyway, as long as my bottle gets filled and I can dispense my beer.

FWIW I picked up a new soda stream bottle the other day (the 330g alu), traded in the old steel bottle-Kmart wouldn't exchange the old steel bottle so I had to try elsewhere and eventually got it swapped over to a new bottle. It's doesn't appear to have a bleed off screw either like the old steel ones did. Portable 3 gallon kegs are go with my second reg and Hoops soda stream adapter.

Cheers, Justin

 

[Snow]

I must be lucky. I haven't had any leaks with my fire extinguisher. I usually force carbonate using the rocking method, but while I'm serving I just depress the handle and put the pin in to keep it open. I leave it on like this for hours at a time no worries, and have even forgot about it and not turned it off for a couple of days.

Cheers
MAH

[post="76754"][/post]​

I too haven't had any leaks from my extinguisher (...yet...touch wood :unsure: ) and in fact, I leave it on all the time, with my kegs sitting at pouring pressure. I guess I'm a bit concerned that the lever on the head is not designed to be turned on and off regularly, and that constant working of the lever might shorten its life span considerably.

- Snow