Fermenatbility Of Crystal Grains

[beers]

Does anyone have any links or information on the percentages of fermentable & unfermentable sugars in crystal malts (as opposed to PPG). I've had a bit of a search & can only seem to find vague statements about "higher" percentages of unfermentable sugars, & adding body etc.
I'm curious because I've just kegged a beer in which I used the highest percentage of crystal malt that I've ever used & I was really surprised by the FG. I used 30% of Carared + 3% Caraaroma in a 1.035 SG wort, mashed at 69-70c, & I got an FG of 1.008-9. Which by my calculations isn't really adding much more body or unfermentables than a regular base malt? I guess I just always assumed that amount of crystal would contribute more body than it has (granted Carared isn't kilned as long as other crystal malts, I guess).

Cheers

 

[phonos]

Hi Beers,

I've done a few experiments trying to work this out.

I think that with lighter crystals you can actually get a reasonable amount of fermentability, particularly if you mash low. I think about 30-40% attenuation from pale crystal is a reasonable figure from what I've experienced.

 

[kieran]

I can't answer the question, but I found this information on the web from http://www.pbm.com/pipermail/hist-brewing/2000/006237.html :

extraction from crystal malts varies greatly with color from around 5 for the darkest, and as Bob say, up to 20 for the light colors.

This really isn't correct. Crystal malts give extract much closer to regular base malts. From Briess Malting's web site
http://www.briess.com/
comes this extract information [my notes in square brackets]:

Two-Row Brewers Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b. 81 % minimum

Six-Row Brewers Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b. 79 % minimum

Pale Ale Malt [2-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 79.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 10L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 75.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 40L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 75.0 % minimum

Two-Row Caramel Malt 40L
Extract, f.g., d.b. 75.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 80L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 73.0 % minimum

Two-Row Caramel Malt 80L
Extract, f.g., d.b. 75.0 % minimum

Caramel Malt 120L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 73.0 % minimum

If you are getting 30 points from a base malt such as their pale ale malt (a two row in the style of British pale malts), with 40L crystal, you would get 30*75/79 or about 28 points. Even with 120L crystal, you'd get virtually the same. In the amounts that crystal is normally used (not Dorchester Ale), you can safely ignore this difference.

For example, take Vienna, another malt that has been further processed, Vienna will often give 8 or so less extraction points than pale malt. On the other side, if you look at pils malt which is dryed at a lower temp, and therefore less "messed with", you will often get 1 or 2 points more extraction.

Again, Vienna and Munich give much closer extract to that of base malts:

Vienna Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b. 78 % minimum

Ashburne Mild Malt [a Vienna-like 2-row malt]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 79.0 % minimum

Vienna Malt [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 78 % minimum

Bonlander Munich Malt
Extract, f.g., d.b. 79 % minimum

Munich Malt 10L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 76.0 % minimum

Munich Malt 20L [6-row]
Extract, f.g., d.b. 75.0 % minimum

Similarly, the amount of fermentables that can be obtained from crytal malt will vary based on color, but more importantly based on how it is used. If crystal is steeped after the mash, you will get no fermentables, however, if you mash crystal, the dextrins can be broken down and converted to fermentables. The amount of dextrins from the crystal that are converted to fermentables in the mash will vary based on the mash temp, if you mash at a high temp, you will obtain few fermentables.

Hate to seem to be picking on you, Nate, but crystal malts do contain fermentables as is. Many years ago (like 25 years) I made a gallon of ale from 100% crystal malt, steeped, not mashed with enzyme containing malts. It tasted pretty bad, but it fermented. I don't recall the apparent attenuation, but I think it may have been along the line of 50%.

The fermentability of crystal malts and how this may change when they are mashed with other malts has been well discussed with documentation in the last year on HomeBrew Digest. Strangely, it seems that the fermentability profile doesn't change much even when they are mashed. Those interested can search the archives at
http://hbd.org.

This helps a bit I guess...

cheers,
Kieran

 

[beers]

Thanks guys.

Phonos, I'd be keen to hear some details of your experiments. I've been thinking that this summer I want to brew a few low-mid strength, but full flavoured & bodied, beers.

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks guys.

Phonos, I'd be keen to hear some details of your experiments. I've been thinking that this summer I want to brew a few low-mid strength, but full flavoured & bodied, beers.

Slightly off topic re the Crystal malts, but I mash my UK dark milds at around 70 degrees for an hour max, my last one had a FG of 1020. It started at a respectable 1042 and apart from a lack of 'alcohol heat' in the flavour it's not watery tasting by any means. I also use a fairly 'poor' attenuating yeast such as Ringwood. I expect you could do similar with lighter coloured beers - bearing in mind that a lot of the flavour of the milds comes from the Choc, Carafa etc malts as well.

Carapils???

Also yeasts such as Ringwood and Wyeast 1469 / Proculture Wood Ale can turn out really nice full flavoured light beers - this one's a mid strength reminiscent of Boddingtons, I would say around 3.6%

 

[beers]

Slightly off topic re the Crystal malts, but I mash my UK dark milds at around 70 degrees for an hour max, my last one had a FG of 1020. It started at a respectable 1042 and apart from a lack of 'alcohol heat' in the flavour it's not watery tasting by any means.

Yeah this has me stumped. I thought my mash temp of 69-70 & high percentage of Carared would give me a higher FG than 1009.
The beer has plenty of flavour (it's an 80ibu faux IPA) but mouthfeel is a tad lower than I was after - 1012-1015 was what I was hoping for. It's just a little watery to support 80ibu's.

I also use a fairly 'poor' attenuating yeast such as Ringwood. I expect you could do similar with lighter coloured beers - bearing in mind that a lot of the flavour of the milds comes from the Choc, Carafa etc malts as well.

This was my next thought. I'm a massive fan of 1968/WLP002 & it's been too long since I've given it a run.
I used us-05 in the beer in question - probably not the best choice, but again I thought the wort would be less fermentable.

Carapils???

Yeah, I would rather not. But it is something I have thought of. Will try a yeast switch 1st I think.

Also yeasts such as Ringwood and Wyeast 1469 / Proculture Wood Ale can turn out really nice full flavoured light beers - this one's a mid strength reminiscent of Boddingtons, I would say around 3.6%

Nice pic.
Thanks for you thoughts Bribie
:beer:

 

[The Scientist]

Does anyone have any links or information on the percentages of fermentable & unfermentable sugars in crystal malts (as opposed to PPG). I've had a bit of a search & can only seem to find vague statements about "higher" percentages of unfermentable sugars, & adding body etc.
I'm curious because I've just kegged a beer in which I used the highest percentage of crystal malt that I've ever used & I was really surprised by the FG. I used 30% of Carared + 3% Caraaroma in a 1.035 SG wort, mashed at 69-70c, & I got an FG of 1.008-9. Which by my calculations isn't really adding much more body or unfermentables than a regular base malt? I guess I just always assumed that amount of crystal would contribute more body than it has (granted Carared isn't kilned as long as other crystal malts, I guess).

Cheers

It would come down to diastatic power wouldn't it?

"The diastatic power (DP), also called the "diastatic activity" or "enzymatic power", of a grain refers to the grain's ability to break down starches into sugars. This is determined by the amount of "diastase," today known as α-amylase, enzyme present in the grain.

A malt with enough power to self-convert has a diastatic power near 35 Lintner (94 WK); the most active, so-called "hottest" malts currently available, American six-row pale barley malts, have a diastatic power of up to 160 Lintner (544 WK)." Wikipedia

If you don't have enough diastatic power in your mash your wort won't be fermentable.

Most malting houses have info on the diastatic power of each of their malts. See attachment to Bairds site:

http://www.bairds-malt.co.uk/Brewing.html

Cheers

TS

 

[mika]

Is your thermometer calibrated ? I recently mashed a recipe with 10% carared as an addition to a beer I had done a month before. Same yeast, lower mash temp (1deg) and I recorded an FG 2points higher than the previous version.

 

[beers]

It would come down to diastatic power wouldn't it?

"The diastatic power (DP), also called the "diastatic activity" or "enzymatic power", of a grain refers to the grain's ability to break down starches into sugars. This is determined by the amount of "diastase," today known as α-amylase, enzyme present in the grain.

A malt with enough power to self-convert has a diastatic power near 35 Lintner (94 WK); the most active, so-called "hottest" malts currently available, American six-row pale barley malts, have a diastatic power of up to 160 Lintner (544 WK)." Wikipedia

If you don't have enough diastatic power in your mash your wort won't be fermentable.

Most malting houses have info on the diastatic power of each of their malts. See attachment to Bairds site:

http://www.bairds-malt.co.uk/Brewing.html

Cheers

TS

I don't think so. I wouldn't think crystal would have any DP? :unsure:
Either way if your mashing it with a base malt, the enzymes in the base malt would convert some longer chain sugars in the crystal.... or so I thought until reading keirans post. I had thought of steeping 50% of the crystal separate from the mash & adding that to the boil.. but apparently this won't make any difference according to Jeff Renner.

edit: On second thought I wouldn't think DP of the mash would have much to do with it, as long as the mash has enough DP to convert itself. The unfermentables in crystal grains should, in theory, not be affected by the enzymes in the mash?

 

[beers]

Is your thermometer calibrated ? I recently mashed a recipe with 10% carared as an addition to a beer I had done a month before. Same yeast, lower mash temp (1deg) and I recorded an FG 2points higher than the previous version.

Good point. I think it is fine, but really should double check that.