Extract Hops In Competition Beer.

[Online Brewing Supplies]

This thread relates directly to my post #31 "Craftbrewer releases liquid hops" with the main focus being the use of Exract hops in the use of Home Brew competitions.This is in no way directed at Ross or his Liquid hop product in usage other than its use in competition Beers.
I would like to keep this thread very objective so the use of the word brewed/beer will include extract and AG.And no abuse please this just lowers the standard of the debate. Which is what I hope it will be.

Ok so we have established that Extract hops have an big influence on beer Aroma and flavour.I know this as I have experience with them.

When you enter a home Brew competition you will generally be judged on the following:

Aroma
Appearance
Flavour and body
Technical Quality
Style.

So Buy adding Extract hops you can influence Aroma Flavour and Technical Quality and proably Style.So a big inpack Yes?

Now these extract hops are added post mashing and post fermentation so they dont really come into play until you are kegging or bottling.So are allied to brewing and fermentation not part of it.

So I have a couple of questions so I can gauge the opinons on the use in competitions.

1.Do you consider the use of Extract hop part of the brewing and fermentation process .

2.Would you use Extract hop in a Home brew competion and feel that your brewing techniques resulted in your Aroma Flavour and Technical Quality results.

3. Have you used Extract hops in a competition beer.

4 .How would you feel if you were beaten by a beer that used Extract hops and you didnt.Would you consider this to indicate a true result of the judging guidlines.

5. Do you think Extract hops should be allowed in home brew competitions.

6.Do you think Extract hops should be indicted on the entry form.

7. Do you think the use of Extract hops in home brew competitions provides a level playing field.

8.Would you be interested in entering a brewing competition that was based on the German purity laws.

9. Should there be a seperate section for Beer that use extract hops.

Its a big subject which I think is going to have a big impact on Home brewing competitions.I would appreciate your points of view.

Cheers GB

 

[troydo]

I have no real input here as i have never enytered a competition, but i will be watching closely, I must say that i see the extracts as an educational tool rather than a brewing tool.

I would love to see your answers as well GB

better get a beer and sit back and watch... :icon_cheers:

 

[Fents]

If we were in a grand prix car race all competing for 1st place and say one guy used an engine oil additive (that was legal to use in the race because its just another form of engine oil) and it gave that guy 5 extra KM's down the straight and he won and then you pulled into his pits and asked what his secret was and he told you would you not use that same engine oil additive to keep up to him and hopefully beat him in the next race?

Yes im aware that is just my analogy...

Hop Oils unfair in comp's? Maybe but until anyone decides otherwise its fair game. If you feel like your being cheated find another way. These hop oils cant be THAT good that a proper brewed beer cant beat it...I'd say its more used for when you bugger somthing up...

Unfair advantage? Not in my opion.

 

[apd]

Two points:

1. There's no way you can prove how a beer was made. So there's little point in having a rule that says you can use ingredients X and Y but not Z.

2. What's the difference between hop extracts added after fermentation and dry hopping? Dry hopping is done after fermentation. And carbonation is done post fermentation. Would there be an argument that a bottle conditioned brew is different to a force carbed brew and there should therefore be rules regarding carbing method? I don't think so.

Andrew

 

[Jye]

1. To me brewing encompasses the entire process of make beer, so yes they are part of brewing. In the same way other extracts/ingredients are added to beer like bourbon and vanilla.

2. I have no need to use them but if a brewer used them correctly and went well in a competition then they have mastered the technique of adding/blending hop extract.

3. Nope.

4. If the beer still fitted the style guidelines then well done to them. The guidelines are based around brewing without them so I see no advantage in using the hop extract in comps.

5. Yes, otherwise ALL extracts should be banned. Its not looked down upon to add malt extract to boost your OG, if you didnt do this your beer maybe unbalanced. The same reason applies to increasing the hop flavour via extracts to improve balance and flavour.

6. No, and if so how do you plan the police it?

7. If anything it will increase the level of quality beers being entered, brewer arent going to use them if they are crap. As I said before, guidelines arent base on extracts and cant make the beers magically better.

8. No, that would instantly remove a lot of the styles.

9. Kits, extract and AG beers get judged together so why separate beers with hop extract.

 

[bconnery]

1.Do you consider the use of Extract hop part of the brewing and fermentation process .
Not the brewing and fermentation process, but by the earlier definition neither is dry hopping.
They are all part of making a beer.

2.Would you use Extract hop in a Home brew competion and feel that your brewing techniques resulted in your Aroma Flavour and Technical Quality results.
Personally I would prefer to use fresh hops but I wouldn't feel that the use of one type or another was any different. Technique is technique. It is what you do with your ingredients, not the ingredients, in my book.

3. Have you used Extract hops in a competition beer.
No

4 .How would you feel if you were beaten by a beer that used Extract hops and you didnt.Would you consider this to indicate a true result of the judging guidlines.
If the beer was better than mine, as per the style, then it should win.

5. Do you think Extract hops should be allowed in home brew competitions.
Yes. They are just another ingredient.

6.Do you think Extract hops should be indicted on the entry form.
No.

7. Do you think the use of Extract hops in home brew competitions provides a level playing field.
Why not?
There seems to be an automatic assumption in these last three points that a beer made with hop extract is going to be 'better' or 'more to style' than one that isn't. I don't see why that is the case.

8.Would you be interested in entering a brewing competition that was based on the German purity laws.
Not really. Maybe if it was a german beer comp but otherwise I personally find them too restricting anyway. Most of my favourite beers in the world wouldn't meet them.

9. Should there be a seperate section for Beer that use extract hops.
No. Unless you are going to separate all beers into kit, extract and AG, and then perhaps further say only hop cones, only liquid yeast etc. etc. Where do you stop?
Personally I think they should totally open. Whatever it takes to make the best beer at home.

 

[warrenlw63]

8.Would you be interested in entering a brewing competition that was based on the German purity laws.

Hell no!! That all but negates the Belgian Specialty section.

Warren -

 

[altstart]

Gooday People I made an English AG bitter a year or so ago and dry hopped in the fermenter with Styrian Goldings flowers after the ferment was complete. When it came time to keg I remember numerous problems with blockages. It turned the kegging operation into a nightmare. I never dry hopped again. The beer was without doubt the best beer I have ever brewed. I will certainly use hop extracts in the keg in future I do not enter my beers in competition and dry hopping with extracts will only increase my own appreciation.

Cheers Altstart

 

[kevnlis]

This is a crosspost:

If not a seperate section, maybe a handicap (like in bowling, golf, etc.)?

In other words the people using liquid extract could be given a fair score as per normal, and then have the score adjusted to reflect the fact that some aspects were artificially enhanced.

 

[Ross]

This is a crosspost:

If not a seperate section, maybe a handicap (like in bowling, golf, etc.)?

In other words the people using liquid extract could be given a fair score as per normal, and then have the score adjusted to reflect the fact that some aspects were artificially enhanced.

Where does "artificially enhanced" come from??


As has been quite clearly pointed out in the majority of replys above, they are IMO as legitimate as any other addition to your brew. We are all about brewing the best beer we can, if these products or any other help you achieve this end, what is the problem, whether they be entered in comps or not.
As a side note, these are nothing new & beers containing these products have been entered in comps at every level for years.

It's good to see though that guys are worried that my products are going to produce competition winning beers, that's exactly what I hoped for


cheers Ross

 

[Franko]

We are all about brewing the best beer we can, if these products or any other help you achieve this end, what is the problem, whether they be entered in comps or not.

Could not have said it better myself


Franko

 

[Maple]

I too have never entered a comp, with no experience in comps, it's hardly fair to respond if it's ok or not, however... If a product helps someone enhance their experienceand product, then brilliant. I'm not saying I'd be using it, but I'm certainly not discounting it either. Many potentials for this product, but as others have said and re-iterated, It's all about the hobby/craft that cumulates in an enjoyable experience! I really don't think we need to debate on what's right and wrong, only to try things and see what works, and share those experiences...maybe it's just me..

 

[Screwtop]

Too many questions to be bothered with really, but for my 2c worth.

As far as I am aware, no Formula is applied to any Australian competition (formula as in restrictions or controle), but one could be applied to a specific category for a competition, across the classes this simply would not work as has already been pointed out, adjuncts and additions are acceptable in certain styles.

As far as the Reinheitsgebot is concerned, it's just a very old consumer protection law, and no guarantee of quality whatsoever. As far as I am concerned we and beer judges should concentrate more on factors which are truly crucial to the character of a category/style of beer, not what ingredients were used to create it.

Now there's a business opportunity for Gryphon Brewing, stock certified organic malt, hops and yeast propagated in a totally organic medium on your site and sponsor an organic beer class in state or national comps. This would provide a competition class for the purist brewers among us.

What about the production of hop pellets, what process do they undergo and what chemicals/oils are introduced at processing, maybe hop usage for competitions should be restricted to the use of fresh flowers only.

 

[kevnlis]

Where does "artificially enhanced" come from??

When I say artificial I mean the act of adding the extract, not the extract itself. Sorry for not being clear about that, I was in no way trying to downplay the quality of the product or what it is. I in fact have already planned to order some of the extract for personal use, but IMHO would be cheating myself to use it in a competition.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Now there's a business opportunity for Gryphon Brewing, stock certified organic malt, hops and yeast propagated in a totally organic medium on your site and sponsor an organic beer class in state or national comps. This would provide a competition class for the purist brewers among us.

.

This is kind of what I was getting at.Maybe not organic as this not only involves the products you mentioned for brewing but also the products that you use for cleaning kegs and equipment.All must be organic to be certified an organic beer.One of our local brewers gave a presentation on thier organic pilsner and I was amazed at the complexity of what you have to do to be certified organic beer.I would be prepared to sponsor a competion class that was made to The Purity laws ( even if they seem out dated) if there was some interest but this appears not to be the case at this stage.
Cheers GB

 

[winkle]

-snip- I would be prepared to sponsor a competion class that was made to The Purity laws ( even if they seem out dated) if there was some interest but this appears not to be the case at this stage.
Cheers GB

I'm sure that there would be considerable interest, sounds lika another thread GB

 

[Weizguy]

I feel that these "added enhancers" can be a positive or negative thing.

My example is if your partner (a woman in this example) has breast augmentation, liposuction of the thighs and a facelift, will it make her less or more desirable. Apart from her own self-image, she may be less attractive or more. If she overdoes the ****s, would they not be immediately perceived as artificial? Same for the facelift (who said Joan Rivers?).

It's horses for courses, and a matter of balance.

To make a better balanced beer, I have been known to add extra malt or late hops.
In my NSW State comp BOS beer last year, I added a little lactic acid to balance the flavours. I made no secret of it, and recorded the recipe as such in the recipe database on this very forum. Does that make me a cheat, for "doping" my beer with some extra additive which occurred naturally in the beer? Or does it mean that I'm a good brewer by being able to recognise and address the imbalance in an otherwise exemplary beer?

Seth

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I'm sure that there would be considerable interest, sounds lika another thread GB

Boy thats good to hear .I will gauge more responses and take it from there.Its dam hard being a "purist" brewer.Thick skin only helps a bit.
Cheers GB

 

[Zizzle]

My example is if your partner (a woman in this example) has breast augmentation, liposuction of the thighs and a facelift, will it make her less or more desirable. Apart from her own self-image, she may be less attractive or more. If she overdoes the ****s, would they not be immediately perceived as artificial?

Dunno. You are gonna have to post pics to illustrate your analogy.

 

[Cortez The Killer]

IMHO using extract hops takes a bit out of the joy of brewing - it's just not cricket

I love using hops

Using extract hops is like using malt extract - while it'll make a good beer - it takes away from the process

But each to their own - said the man as he kissed the pig

(Gosh I've used some bad clichs today )

Cheers