Element For 180l Boil

[itmechanic]

Hi Guys,

I recently had a topic for a burner for a 180L boil. Ive changed my mind and have decided to go all electric and need some help on choosing element sizes. I will have a 200L kettle boiling 180L for around a 140L batch, 200L HLT and seperate HERMS. any sugestions as to what element size i will need for each vessel? all help greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[roller997]

Paul,
I am looking at making a smaller system which will boil about 140 liters.
At the moment I am looking at using 3 * 2200 stainless elements which seem to be made particularily to be installed in kettles and HLT. I have a fourth one which I will add to the kettle if the boil isn't coming up fast enough. As I don't have the vessels made up as yet and I have a busy 5 weeks coming up, I won't be able to confirm if 3 will be enough or if I need the fourth one.
The advantage of using electric elements is that you can insulate the kettle quite a lot and I am sure that helps with bringing it up to a good boil quicker and to maintain a boil. My idea was to make each of the elements individually switchable so I can leave 1, 2, 3 or 4 on to ensure a good rolling boil.
To further speed things up, I am planning on using my Heat Exchange in the Herms setup to ramp it up as close to 100 degrees. The idea is that when I stop recirculating and as I am lautering, I let the wort go through the HE one more time, but this time I boost the temperature to as close to 100 without the HE water boiliing. This should give the wort a signficiant boost in temperatures from its 75 degrees that it exits the mash tun from.
I use 2 * 2400 kettle elements in the HE so that means in total I could have 11,400 watt of power, drawing a massive 47.5Amp which brings me to the limits of my house supply.
I have 2 wall plates, each with 2 * 15Amp sockets in the brew lab (well, SWMBO calls it her Laundry) which are each wired back to 25 Amp circuits so I can operate 4 elements at one time without blowing those fuses so with the greatest of likelyhood, I will not operate the third element in the kettle and run that at 4400 Watt until the wort has circulated through the HE since I have a few more watt of power.
I have heard of folks boiling a slightly covered 50 liter well insulated kettle with a single 2200 watt element so I am hoping that 3 can deal with 130 odd liters if I pre-heat the wort, insulate it well and cover the kettle a little while it gets up to a boil.

In your case, I suspect you would need a minimum of 8800 watt of power and even then it is not going to be very fast to get 180 liters to a boil if you can't ramp it up in temperatures beforehand.

By the way, where did you get your HLT and Kettle from?
As I mentioned, I am looking at getting mine fabricated and so far without a lid but in 1.6mm stainless for walls and 2mm stainless for bottom with holes & 1/2 bsp fittings to add my thermometer, valve, PID probe and other things the guy here has quoted me $465 each for about 150-180 liters. I am still confirming if it is 304 or if it is the magnetic stainless which would not be passed by a food inspector in Victoria.

Cheers

Roller

 

[Rodolphe01]

Just buy 10 of these h34r:

 

[MHB]

Just 2 quick points

Insulation is a big help, buy good waterproof stuff and glue it to the kettle, it pays for its self.

Don't guess when it comes to elements, get in touch with a professional, I use Stokes, they can size the element and recommend mountings and the likes, just tell them that you want to boil a 20% sugar solution.

Off to open the shop see ya.

MHB

 

[QldKev]

Hi Guys,

I recently had a topic for a burner for a 180L boil. Ive changed my mind and have decided to go all electric and need some help on choosing element sizes. I will have a 200L kettle boiling 180L for around a 140L batch, 200L HLT and seperate HERMS. any sugestions as to what element size i will need for each vessel? all help greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Paul

First lets look at the HLT (adjust values to what you need, I'm just using rounded numbers)
180L water
water start temp = 20
water strike temp = 80
total water temp change = 60
3 x 2200w elements = 6600w
Plug them into the attached spreadsheet = 1.9hrs (allowing zero losses)

try with 4 x 2200w elements = 8800w
Plug them into the attached spreadsheet = 1.43hrs

try with different size elements until you get what you need.
remember you can setup the controller on a time so it can start the HLT a few hours before you are ready to brew.


HERMS
Are you going to do single steps, or use the HERMS to ramp up temps?
So work out your volumes, and ramp times, and plug into the spreadsheet.

KETTLE
You have 2 numbers here, time to get to the boil, and how much energy you need to hold a decent rolling boil.
1) time to get to boil
Mash out water = 80
Boil = 100
Difference = 20
volume = 180L
4 x 2200w elements = 8800w
into spreadsheet = 0.48hrs

2) maintain a decent rolling boil
Not sure here, I used 4 x 2200w in the kettle above at a guess for this one. Need to instigate further.



View attachment water_heating.xls

QldKev

 

[roller997]

QldKev,
Thanks for that - Quite a useful spreadsheet.
With the elements needed to maintain a rolling boil, I would assume that it would be less power than to get to the boil, otherwise you would be dealing with a fairly high evaporation rate.

Cheers

Roller

 

[np1962]

Just buy 10 of these h34r:

ahaha... love the description of this. Safety first :beerbang:

'Don't touch the element when it is hot. Don't put your hand into the liquid when the element is plugged in a wall outlet, can not also be used in metal containers, suitable to be used in 5-25L capacity plastic containers.'

 

[QldKev]

QldKev,
Thanks for that - Quite a useful spreadsheet.
With the elements needed to maintain a rolling boil, I would assume that it would be less power than to get to the boil, otherwise you would be dealing with a fairly high evaporation rate.

Cheers

Roller

Not 100% sure, as I use LPG for for my system. I have read a few times about the BIAG in an urn for a single batch having issues in winter getting to and maintaining a decent rolling boil. I'm slowly putting together gear for my triple sized HERMS. I will run electric HLT and HERMS, but LPG under the kettle. Remember a NASA running from a high pressure reg can heat nearly as quick as 10,000w of elements. Also depending on what density elements you are running, scorching of the wort *may* be an issue. I highlighted may because I've read soo many different ideas if this is or is not an issue.

QldKev

 

[Gulf Brewery]

A couple of things to add to this from a practical point of view

As soon as the wort covers the elements, you can turn them on, so while you are sparging, the wort is heating and this reduces the time from the end of sparge to the start of boil. Our initial temperature into the kettle is in the high 60's as it is coming out of the mash and passing through a lauter grant, so it drops a bit of temperature there.

We use 48kw to bring 1550 litres to the boil within 45 minutes of the end of sparge and then hold a rolling boil with 24kw. A temperature controller is needed so that you don't have boilovers.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Crusty]

Hi Guys,

I recently had a topic for a burner for a 180L boil. Ive changed my mind and have decided to go all electric and need some help on choosing element sizes. I will have a 200L kettle boiling 180L for around a 140L batch, 200L HLT and seperate HERMS. any suggestions as to what element size i will need for each vessel? all help greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Paul

Hi Paul,
I know you changed your mind from gas to electric but I would seriously re-consider mate. You are going to need some serious power drawing elements to get what you want to achieve. An electrician will also need to up your circuits to allow for the increased power draw. If you are looking at getting at least 2 x 3600w elements for your HLT, 3 x 3600w elements for your Boil & at least a 3600w for your herms, I think you won't be getting any change from a grand, not to mention the cost of each brew day.
If you got a 32jet mongolian burner, it will boil your 180lt no problem at all. I have one which will move from the HLT to the boil when needed. You only then need to concentrate on the herms element.
Go gas buddy, it's going to be a hell of a lot cheaper & it will do what you want.

Good luck,
Crusty

 

[Rodolphe01]

ahaha... love the description of this. Safety first :beerbang:

'Don't touch the element when it is hot. Don't put your hand into the liquid when the element is plugged in a wall outlet, can not also be used in metal containers, suitable to be used in 5-25L capacity plastic containers.'

If you had any experience with the ones which look very similar in construction to those from a recent bulk buy you'd see that these safety tips are pretty important :unsure:

 

[itmechanic]

All great advice, thanks guys.

I may look at just using elements for the HLT and HERMS, and go with a gas burner for the kettle. That should cut my energy needs down considerably.

The only reason i wanted an electric kettle was so i didnt have to use gas in my garage, but with proper ventilation and a gas fuse it should be ok. I might rig up a solenoid to cut the gas flow if the burner goes out just to be safe.

Whats good insulation to use on vessels?

Cheers,
Paul

 

[MHB]

I'm building a 1,000 L kettle, the heater is a 170 kW blown LPG burner, the kettle has a very slightly conical bottom, about 100 mm deep across the 1200 mm diameter, there will be a secondary cone 150 mm under the floor, all fully welded so gas tight all the combustion products go up the chimney.

The underside of the cone will be glued on Mill Board, around the sides and up the tank proper is Kaowool (glued on) for the first 500 mm, then Aeroflex, all clad in a SS skin.

The wool and Mill Board are all rated to well over 1,000 ^oC and the Aeroflex to 125 ^oC.

Where it gets interesting is the pay back, the insulation costs about what I save on gas in the first 15-20 brews.

Like elements its worth consulting professionals, I'm using three different products to achieve the outcome I'm looking for, the best urethane would turn to vapour in the wrong place and mill board isn't the best choice on other parts of the kettle but they are both excellent when used correctly, insulation is an upfront cost that pays long term dividends best to get it right at the start.

MHB


PS
For an all electric kettle I would go 25 mm Aeroflex all the way, a rolling boil on the inside and cool to the touch outside, and you can buy the stuff everywhere.
M