Effects Of Cold Break On Ferment?

[schooey]

I have just swapped over from using an immersion chiller to a plate chiller, mainly because I don't have a pool to draw my chilling water from and return it too, so I was either dumping an hours worth of chill water on the lawn, which quite frankly didn't really need it, or just letting it run down the drain, which seemed a huge waste when so many peopl are on water restrictions..

Anyway, when I used the IC, all the cold break was left in the kettle, now with the chill plate, the break ends up in the fermenter as you can see by this piccie from tonight's brew...



My question is; Does this have any adverse effect? I know plenty of peopl use chill plates, but is there something special I need to know? Just curious of the science behind it if anyone can help.... (Yes I did have a search for 10 minutes or so before posting this topic)

Cheers in advance

Schooey

 

[pokolbinguy]

Interesting...I for one would be keen to know if this has any adverse effects.....as I'm sure others would be keen to find out aswell.

 

[Bribie G]

You would think with the number of times this has been raised, and the number of years this forum has been going we should have a definitive answer on this by now. What do the commercial breweries and micros do?

 

[MHB]

This is going to be a typical "Brewers" answer Maybe.

I like what Kunze has to say about cold break, paraphrased, it isn't a problem unless there is so much cold break that it becomes a problem by coating the yeast, up until then it's a vital yeast nutrient, and that the only people who have a problem with excessive amounts of cold break are those brewers forced to use "inferior malt" (sic 6 row) or excessive amounts of unmalted adjunct.

Don't think there is any problem with what's in the picture, and I get a real kick out of watching all the stages a beer goes through, probably why I like glass fermenters, more fun than a lava lamp.

MHB

 

[matti]

No impact at all if remaining wort is clear.
Cold break falling fully out of suspension is a sign of a good intense boil and correct pH.
MHB is on the money.

For those who filter it won't even affect the clarity of finished beer.

 

[newguy]

+1 to what MHB and matti said. I use a CFC and my cold break ends up in my carboys too, but I never worry about it. The owner of a local micro told me that he once employed a brewer who did everything possible to minimise the cold break in the fermenter, which usually involved one or two racking stages before pitching. Every batch that guy brewed ended up being a stuck fermentation (wouldn't attenuate). He wasn't employed long. Once he was gone and they reverted to their old way (cold break in fermenter), their batches came out normally again.

 

[Screwtop]

Like others have said, haven't been able to find a definitive when it comes to this subject. But may be able to suggest an process which will reduce the amount of break. Connect up your PC prior to flame out and pump boiling wort through it and return to the kettle as some small breweries do. Either plumb in a return or make up an over the edge type out of copper pipe. Have the return at the bottom of the kettle with a 90 bend and an arm length or about 100mm curved a little against the side of the kettle. I connect up and start pumping at full valve opening 20 min before flame out to sanitise the PC (has already been cleaned in place using PBW after previous use) without chilling liquid flow. At flame out start the flow of your chilling liquid and continue for 20 min. Using a March Pump this is enough time to form a central collection of break and hop material. Then switch the wort from the return to the kettle to the fermenter, I then back off the flow rate of the wort using the valve and the wort chills much quicker (this is when I put ice in the pre chiller). This process adds 20 min to your brewday but the whirlpooling and chilling of the wort during recirculation to around 60C gives a nice central pile of stuff in the kettle very similar to your pic.

Hope you find this helpful,

Screwy

 

[schooey]

Cheers for the advice, fellas, very helpful indeed... One day I'm gonna lash out and buy a copy of Kunze... And thanks, Screwy, sounds like something I might look into, cheers... :icon_cheers:

 

[floppinab]

I like what Kunze has to say about cold break, paraphrased, it isn't a problem unless there is so much cold break that it becomes a problem by coating the yeast,

I'll +1 on that as I have had the odd occasion where the volume of break interrupted the ferment. The break I had in those occasions did not settle at all well (unlike your pic schooey) and was sitting up as high as half way up the fermenter. The yeast I had tended to settle on top of it and I ended up with a brew with the top half of the fermenter fermenting and the bottom half still at OG. Even a bit of fermenter agitation wouldn't budge it, I had hit it with a sterilised spoon and after that it fermented out OK.
I tend to filter most of my lighter beers and inevitably rack to secondary everything else (after a crash chill of the primary in both cases to try and "pull down" the break/yeast) to eventually get rid of it in the resultant brew.

Another issue it causes is some uncertainty about repitching. I'm never quite sure how much yeast I've got in there and therefore how much to maintain, not to mention throwing in another brew with another wack of break, you end up losing quite a bit of beer in the break.

 

[Guest Lurker]

I use an immersion chiller. But, I do double batches, and I am not at all careful about draining the kettle. The first fermenter is pretty much clear of break. The second fermenter gets nearly all the break as I have abandoned all removal methods and drain as much as I can. The two fermenters get the same pitch rate, fermentation conditions...and try as I might, I can find no difference between the beer from each fermenter.

 

[Asher]

...and try as I might, I can find no difference between the beer from each fermenter.

GL,

What about the crausen rings on the fermwnters? Is there any difference in the way they look/stick etc.
I thought that this is where allot of the cold break ends up

Asher

 

[floppinab]

GL,

What about the crausen rings on the fermwnters? Is there any difference in the way they look/stick etc.
I thought that this is where allot of the cold break ends up

Asher

No major issue in my experience Asher, very little difference to a non-break ferment.

One other thing that comes to mind though is the difficulty in getting a hydro reading amongst all that break. I find it very tricky with all that muck in there.

 

[Guest Lurker]

GL,

What about the crausen rings on the fermwnters? Is there any difference in the way they look/stick etc.
I thought that this is where allot of the cold break ends up

Asher

Good point. This is a batch of pale ale, I was short on volume and all the break went into the second fermenter. I didnt bother marking which was which, but these both had a pack of US05 pitched. The flash makes it hard to see, but with light coming through the fermenter, I would guess the left krausen is maybe twice as thick as the right. Although the difference seems small compared to the volume of break that went in. Next time I will keep track of which is which.

 

[brettprevans]

i hate the idea of wasted wort so i try and get as much out of my kettle as possible,. this of course results in a lot of cold break going into the fermentor. doesnt seem to worry my beers. it should just be food for yeast. you could always rack the wort off the cold break once it settles if you want. or use a racking cane from your kettle to the fermentor.

 

[raven19]

Great thread this one. I am keenly interested, as I happen to have a cube of Belgian Pale with a heap of break in the no chill cube.... slightly off topic, as its hot and cold break together... but break nonetheless.

...and try as I might, I can find no difference between the beer from each fermenter.

This is good to read. Mine will be two different yeasts so cannot do a side by side comparison.

i hate the idea of wasted wort so i try and get as much out of my kettle as possible...

+1 here too! Drain the lot I say!

 

[DanRayner]

Heya,

Richard's (at the Wig&Pen) system for dropping out the cold break and producing a clear unfermented wort is so good that after all's said and done and the clear wort has been transferred to the fermenter he goes and shovels out some of the trub and puts it back into the unfermented wort as it is full of excellent nutrients for yeast growth.

The pick looks great - nice separation of denatured proteins from your wort - that's what a fast cold break is all about!

cheerio,

D

 

[floppinab]

Heya,

Richard's (at the Wig&Pen) system for dropping out the cold break and producing a clear unfermented wort is so good

Could you explain a bit more there Dan, be interested to hear it.

 

[rwmingis]

Just subscribing to thread... Am well keen to hear about Wig&Pen's system.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.

My theory on cold break is that really - most home brewers are transferring the majority of the cold break into their fermenters regardless of how they chill. The particle size in cold break is just so small... that the amount of time we give our wort to whirlpool and settle rests - just isn't sufficient for any great portion of the cold break to actually settle out. The time for cold break to settle out effectively - is in the range of multiple hours. I think that mostly, what happens is that when people IM chill - they simply have a longer period of undisturbed rest time - and they get a better settling of hot break. Only the biggest floccs of cold break are being left behind, the rest is teeny tiny particles in suspension and hardly even makes the wort cloudy to look at.

I think that the standard whirlpool/rest/transfer routine for a CF or plate chiller transfers ALL of the cold break, and a reasonable amount of hot break as well - the IM regime transfers the majority of cold break and a lesser amount of hotbreak. The difference people notice, is mostly that difference in teh amount of hot break.

Looking at your picture - I say that thats mostly hot break. Cold break is more a kind of dirty grey/brown colour and that all looks like clear/white hotbreak to me. When you see krausen rising and it brings up that brown goo along with it... a lot of that is cold break that rises with the C02 during initial fermentation.

Or thats what I reckon anyway.

Thirsty

 

[fraser_john]

Darned if I can find it now, but I read somewhere that some German lager/pilsner brewers centrifuge out the cold break before pitching.

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found it http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi....2/barchet.html

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