Effects Of Cold Break On Ferment?

[schooey]

Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.

My theory on cold break is that really - most home brewers are transferring the majority of the cold break into their fermenters regardless of how they chill. The particle size in cold break is just so small... that the amount of time we give our wort to whirlpool and settle rests - just isn't sufficient for any great portion of the cold break to actually settle out. The time for cold break to settle out effectively - is in the range of multiple hours. I think that mostly, what happens is that when people IM chill - they simply have a longer period of undisturbed rest time - and they get a better settling of hot break. Only the biggest floccs of cold break are being left behind, the rest is teeny tiny particles in suspension and hardly even makes the wort cloudy to look at.

I think that the standard whirlpool/rest/transfer routine for a CF or plate chiller transfers ALL of the cold break, and a reasonable amount of hot break as well - the IM regime transfers the majority of cold break and a lesser amount of hotbreak. The difference people notice, is mostly that difference in teh amount of hot break.

Looking at your picture - I say that thats mostly hot break. Cold break is more a kind of dirty grey/brown colour and that all looks like clear/white hotbreak to me. When you see krausen rising and it brings up that brown goo along with it... a lot of that is cold break that rises with the C02 during initial fermentation.

Or thats what I reckon anyway.

Thirsty

You could be very well right on there, TB...

- I used a whole whirlfloc in that batch of 21L, which, if I recall is only supposed to need half a tablet
- It didn't spend a lot of time in the kettle after whirlpool, somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes
- Most of that break in real life is a creamy white fluffy colour, not grey looking
- and lastly, it's only just got a krausen forming now, and it has that grey looking scum on top with it, although some of the big fluffy clumps have come to the top too

So next question, if there is a majority of hot break in there, as well as some cold break, is there any difference to my above question? Do they need to be treated differently, or is it the same thing; As long as they don't overtake the yeast, it's no biggie?

and Cheers for the help, TB

 

[floppinab]

Its possible (just floating ideas) - that the large volume you see in your fermenter is less from cold break, than from a bit of overuse of kettle finings. You use too much of it and the break forms big fluffy floccs that wont compact down properly. Its not that there is a heap "more" of it, its just taking up more space thats all.

Or thats what I reckon anyway.

Thirsty

Mmmmmm, velly velly interesting. As a serial kettle fininger and, although I can manage through the volume of break that schooey has shown here, I would love to see less of it in the fermenter (I no chill). Are you suggesting to use less???? or no kettle finings at all to avoid this. Will particular type of fining produce a different result (I use kopperfloc)???
Also does the quality of the run-off have an impact here i.e. if you have a very cloudy run-off/poor lautering will that increase the volume of breaks you are getting???

So many questions................

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I reckon use less - not none.

Remember, kettle finings don't make the break happen more effectively - all they do is make the particles of break clump together so they sink faster and you dont need to rest your whirlpool for as long. So you can get the same result without finings... it just takes longer.

Yes - turbid wort from the lauter tun will effect the amount of stuff left behind in the whirpool - its not extra break... but its extra gunk thats precipitated out of the boil and is all mixed in. Me - I dont believe that turbid wort (eve very turbid wort) into the kettle is an issue - as long as the boil does its job and the wort coming out is not turbid. I dont care about cold break - but firmly believe that as little as possible hot break should make it into the fermenter.

tb

 

[notung]

No major issue in my experience Asher, very little difference to a non-break ferment.

One other thing that comes to mind though is the difficulty in getting a hydro reading amongst all that break. I find it very tricky with all that muck in there.

I remember reading in some other thread that the SG of cold break material is basically the same as the SG of your surrounding wort, therefore it would not effect accuracy of hydrometer readings. Does that sound correct or is it perhaps fanciful?

 

[floppinab]

I remember reading in some other thread that the SG of cold break material is basically the same as the SG of your surrounding wort, therefore it would not effect accuracy of hydrometer readings. Does that sound correct or is it perhaps fanciful?

Doesn't sound too fanciful notung, what I tend to find is that it increases the viscosity of the sample, in some cases quite severly and due to that there's a tendancy for it to "hold up" the hydro. I try to bounce it around a bit to find the mean point but it's tricky. I've just kegged English style bitter and it does seen to a have a big malt kick/residual sweetness and I'm wondering if I put it away a bit early based on the last hydro sample which was full of break.

 

[schooey]

Well it's fermenting away nicely at the moment, and so much for all that break being settled to the bottom... I took a video to show how active the ferment is, and how much the break is being roused, you can see it on youtube. I guess this is the attraction of glass carboys for me, you can see exactly what is happening.

 

[clean brewer]

Well it's fermenting away nicely at the moment, and so much for all that break being settled to the bottom... I took a video to show how active the ferment is, and how much the break is being roused, you can see it on youtube. I guess this is the attraction of glass carboys for me, you can see exactly what is happening.

Thats mad hey, I want a Glass Carboy now...

:icon_offtopic: How much heat would that sort of fermentation create, Im thinking that setting my Fridgemate at 18 deg for Ales could be too high with fermentation like that going on?

:icon_cheers: CB

 

[muckanic]

So next question, if there is a majority of hot break in there, as well as some cold break, is there any difference to my above question? Do they need to be treated differently, or is it the same thing; As long as they don't overtake the yeast, it's no biggie?

I have found that fermenting hot break (and, worse, fermenting on the grain) results in more sulphides being produced. Whether that scrubs out or not is a technique issue.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Darned if I can find it now, but I read somewhere that some German lager/pilsner brewers centrifuge out the cold break before pitching.

start edit....

found it http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi....2/barchet.html

end edit....

There's a few different techniques - centrifuge, racking off the cold break (either before or after yeast pitching) or pulling it out of the cone anyway - filtration and bubbling Co2 through the wort and skimming it off the top.

If you no-chill... you can just leave it in the cube, but its a bastard to transfer the wort without stirring it up.

Those crazy Germans are pretty much the only ones who worry about it though - and we all know what **** beer they make...... hmmm

 

[tommygun]

Im planning to use a immersion chiller for the first time and was wondering if say a muslin or cloth material (boiled or soaked in a no-rinse steriliser) would be enough to filter hops and most of the break out? Does anyone else use this method to filter break other than whirlpooling and siphoning?

 

[Gavo]

Im planning to use a immersion chiller for the first time and was wondering if say a muslin or cloth material (boiled or soaked in a no-rinse steriliser) would be enough to filter hops and most of the break out? Does anyone else use this method to filter break other than whirlpooling and siphoning?

I am a no chiller and just whirlpool and drain into the cube, all of what goes in the cube then goes into the fermenter. If I used a chiller I still would only drop is straight in the fermenter after whirlpooling. It all settles out at the end of the ferment and I still get clear beer.


Gavo.