Drying out a Saison

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Hey,

I'm brewing my first Saison, using the recipe from Brewing Classic Styles (raison 'dSaison).

My concern, and it may not be real, is that it's not going to be dry enough - while it appears to be attenuating very well, the samples are quite - if not very - sweet.

Some of the more pertinent details:
OG 1.059
FG 1.006 (and it may go further!!)

I did a 90 minute mash starting at 64C - no higher - and dropping slightly over the period.
I pitched at 20C and raised the temp to 25 over the next five days. The sugar was added to the fermentor prior to the yeast (not to the boil, but it was boiled).

Recipe-wise I'm hitting relatively close to the numbers, with the only alteration to the recipe being that I'm using the WLP Saison II yeast instead of the Saison I (the Saison II has slightly better attenuation, and I believe I've gone beyond the stated FG in the recipe).

So - while it's drying out by the numbers, it's still very very sweet. Fruity, complex, very tasty - but certainly not dry. Now, I am tasting samples, at 25C, so that may be affecting my perceptions - I do know that sweetness will reduce a little with the drop in temperature - but not this much.

So - am I worrying? Am I wrong - is it supposed to be sweet? Or do I need new taste buds? Maybe I'm being thrown by the different yeast?

Love to get some opinions!

Rob

 

[Kumamoto_Ken]

Not sure on the sweetness, but it might be worth bumping it a couple of degrees higher, up to 27-28?
How long has it been fermenting?

 

[mosto]

I brewed my first and only Saison a couple of months ago which finished 1.002 (Danstar Belle Saison). In my tasting notes, the first few days from the keg I was getting a faint malty sweetness. When I attacked it again the following weekend, the sweetness had gone and I was getting the dryness and lemony citrus taste I was expecting. So maybe it's a time thing. I'm only guessing really, but that was my experience.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the reply - it's been fermenting for 12 days as of today, with the following progress:

I raised the temp by 1C every day.

1.057 after 0 days. 20C
1.031 after 3 days. 23C
1.024 after 5 days. 25C
1.015 after 7 days. 25C
1.009 after 9 days. 25C
1.006 after 11 days. 25C (last night).

So it's continued to ferment even staying at 25C for the last 6-7 days - and it might continue still

The Saison II specifies 25.5C as the high-end, so not sure about going higher - well, not yet anyway, until it appears to stall.

Perhaps I just need to get it down to 1.002 or thereabouts to remove the sweetness?

 

[[email protected]]

@mosto - thanks for this.

I might just give it the full 2 weeks in primary, let it attenuate as far as it will on it's own (I'm within the recipe specs), and then keg it and give it some time........

Cheers!

 

[technobabble66]

The 2 saisons i did recently finished around 1.006, i think. Both ended up being quite dry.
I'd be tempted to crank the FV to 27°C for a day or 2 just to make sure the yeast is done.
I found in mine the flavour of the Wey Boh Pils malt i used has a slight honey-like element to it that can taste a little sweetish. However it was overall still quite dry. So i found it an interesting effect: the delicate dry funky saison character with the honey-like element in there to balance it.

Basically, unless your alc% is super high, i'd assume 1.006 is sufficiently low that it'll definitely be dry enough to balance it.
Keg and chill, baby!!

 

[TheWiggman]

Isn't saison yeast a notorious staller that takes around 3 weeks at warmer temperatures? Doesn't sound like it's stall but I'd be inclined to leave it longer than you think. Those last few points can take a while.

 

[HBHB]

Don't sweat it, let it go higher. I wouldn't be concerned at that late stage about letting it reach up 28-30 odd degrees.

1.006 certainly won't be sweet from residual sugars, but could be some perceived sweetness from some malt types.

Pretty sure if left for another 5-6 days at a higher temp it'll dry it out further. With that mash schedule, unless there's a heap of dextrinous malts in the recipe it'll probably get down to 1.002 ish.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Alcohol can give a perception of sweetness. I had a golden strong that went from 1.071 to 1.002 and it still seemed kinda sweet.

Carbonation will enhance a dry feel.

Probably still worth waiting and maybe upping the temp.

 

[[email protected]]

Interesting - the concensus seems to be leaning towards increasing the temp, and you're right - it probably won't do any harm at this stage.

So I'll increase it to 28 over the next few days....

 

[redbarron]

Sorry slightly off topic but I'm planning on brewing this recipe myself. Jamil says carbonate at 3-3.5. I've never gone that high before and I certainly don't want bottle bombs. What do you guys think?

 

[Spiesy]

Alcohol can give a perception of sweetness. I had a golden strong that went from 1.071 to 1.002 and it still seemed kinda sweet.

Carbonation will enhance a dry feel.

Probably still worth waiting and maybe upping the temp.

This.

Your Saison is currently 7% abv. Unless that's kept in check with a lot of bitterness, you're going to get some alcohol sweetness. Attenuating any further is only going to add more alcohol.

Out of interest, what was your yeast pitching rate and freshness of said yeast?

 

[[email protected]]

Sorry slightly off topic but I'm planning on brewing this recipe myself. Jamil says carbonate at 3-3.5. I've never gone that high before and I certainly don't want bottle bombs. What do you guys think?

My understanding is that there are plenty of commercial brews out there in that range, and they all use 'standard' beer bottles - which you'll be using too (I guess that's a bit of an assumption).

HOWEVER - lots of commercial beer bottles are one-use-only, some are returnable/reusable, and both types could have minor manufacturing defects or scratches that will make them unsafe.

If it was me, I'd be careful to only use good quality swing-tops, especially considering the pressure changes that can occur - e.g. your 3.5 Vols @ 4C yields a pressure of 22.5psi, but the day you move those bottles from the fridge to the car is the day that pressure goes well over 50psi, and the day you get to pressure test those old VB bottles.

As I write this I'm now starting to worry about whether swing-tops are actually safer - I've always assumed that the rubber seal would act as a bit of a pressure release well before the tolerance of the bottle is reached.

So..... kegs it is then.

 

[[email protected]]

This.

Your Saison is currently 7% abv. Unless that's kept in check with a lot of bitterness, you're going to get some alcohol sweetness. Attenuating any further is only going to add more alcohol.

Out of interest, what was your yeast pitching rate and freshness of said yeast?

Thanks Spiesy - measuring this morning the gravity is down to 1.003, and the sample is tasting super delicious. Still a bit sweet, but complex and bitter and well-balanced.

To answer your other question - I pitched a 2L starter that had been made 24 hours previously.

I certainly haven't had the seemingly-common problem of stalled ferments that most of the 'drying out a saison' posts have - I even had a US-05 ready, and I was expecting to have to use it.

At this point I'd say we're finished or close to finished - I'm at 27C now, and at most it will probably attenuate to 1.002. I'll leave it sit for another week and then keg it - looking forward to this one!!

 

[Adr_0]

What was your IBU?

 

[JDW81]

My understanding is that there are plenty of commercial brews out there in that range, and they all use 'standard' beer bottles - which you'll be using too (I guess that's a bit of an assumption).

HOWEVER - lots of commercial beer bottles are one-use-only, some are returnable/reusable, and both types could have minor manufacturing defects or scratches that will make them unsafe.

If it was me, I'd be careful to only use good quality swing-tops, especially considering the pressure changes that can occur - e.g. your 3.5 Vols @ 4C yields a pressure of 22.5psi, but the day you move those bottles from the fridge to the car is the day that pressure goes well over 50psi, and the day you get to pressure test those old VB bottles.

As I write this I'm now starting to worry about whether swing-tops are actually safer - I've always assumed that the rubber seal would act as a bit of a pressure release well before the tolerance of the bottle is reached.

So..... kegs it is then.

Or champagne bottles with a cork and cage or caps. Those bottles will easily take the pressure of a highly carbonated beer.

 

[[email protected]]

What was your IBU?

The recipe (from memory) called for 27IBU (4%AA Hallertau). I think my hops may have been 4.8%, so I may be slightly over the 27IBU.

 

[Yeastfridge]

Did you adjust your water at all? Higher sulfate in your water gives a noticeably drier finish, higher chloride will give you more malty sweet and muffle the bitterness. I've been making a lot of saisons since the weather turned warm and have been playing with my water chloride/sulfate because I like a really dry saison and it has made a huge difference.

 

[[email protected]]

Did you adjust your water at all? Higher sulfate in your water gives a noticeably drier finish, higher chloride will give you more malty sweet and muffle the bitterness. I've been making a lot of saisons since the weather turned warm and have been playing with my water chloride/sulfate because I like a really dry saison and it has made a huge difference.

Actually that's a good point - my sulphates are quite low at 34mg/L.

My Water book says that for a Saison, my sulphates should be in the 100-400 range (ouch! I'm way under!).

Chloride - 15mg/L - Water suggests 0-100, so I'm not too worried about that for the moment.

I haven't played with water chemistry too much in the past - it always seems like a very broad area to get into, but you've given me a relatively simple area where I should be able to make clear improvements - thanks!

Just a thought - since I'm not now worried about mash PH etc, is it possible to adjust the sulphates at this point of the process (i.e. late fermentation)? I'm guessing not, but thought it worth asking.

Cheers,

Rob

 

[Charst]

Sorry slightly off topic but I'm planning on brewing this recipe myself. Jamil says carbonate at 3-3.5. I've never gone that high before and I certainly don't want bottle bombs. What do you guys think?

I generally bottle everything high carb in Champagne Bottles and find 3 volumes plenty. Saisons are highly carbed but often you can hardly get the beer in the glass its that high. If your nervy aim for 2.8 and enjoy the beer