Dry Hopping Vs Hop Additions Late In The Boil.

[Stuster]

State of Mind, to go back to your original post, what hops did you use in your test?

 

[kevin_smevin]

BribieG,
that sounds like a really interesting experiment, look forward to reading more about it.


Boagsy,
my understanding is that the hop cones have two components that are used.

The resin is the stuff that is converted by boiling to bitter the beer. The higher AA% a hop has, it means there is more resins per gr hops and therefore more bittering to extract.

The other component of the hop, the essential oils are the ones that add the flavor/aroma. The essential oils can appearantly be divided into the "citrusy" and the "floraly" components, but I believe these divisions are very rough as the essential oils consists of hundreds of different components.

Reading in "The Art and Science of Brewing", it says that the essential oils evaporate from the lenght of time we boil the beer.
That is why the only component left in the beer from the 60 min boil is the resin, transformed into "bittering".

My understanding is that there is no direct link between high resin content (high AA %) and high essential oils % in the hops.

Pride of Ringwood is a popular hop because it has high AA%, meaning it has a lot of resin per gram hops so good for bittering and therefor early in the boil.

Saaz is a hop low in AA% so it has little resin per gram of hops, but has a lot of essential oils so it has good aroma/flavor properties. This is why it is a "noble hop" I believe, due to the high % of essential oils.


Here is page 56 of the Art and Science :

View attachment 36650


If BribieG perfects a way to use both essential oils and resin from the same hops, that would be an awesome step forward!

Interested to hear more about how that will work out, will check the other thread now.


edit:
I would then claim the right hop for dry hopping (or late hopping) are hops with high essential oils, so called "aroma hops".
These will be able to loose some essential oils in the wort, while the AA% (resin, bittering) has no effect as you are not boiling the wort.

thanks
Bjorn

Something to look at for selecting hops for dry hopping are the different compounds in the oil fraction. Myrcene is supposed to give the harsher, grassier notes while humulene gives the well rounded floral notes. Noble hops usually have high levels of humulene (around 40%) and lower myrcene. So that would mean low myrcene and high humulene would give a smoother hop aroma from dry hopping in theory. However, Cascade is commonly used to dry hop and is full of myrcene and has very low humulene. Then again, lots of folk like that really grassy hop note. You really just have to try them out i think. I've had terrible results with late hopping using hops that on paper look amazing

 

[Screwtop]

Hi Screwy,

What hop form do you use in the keg when dry hopping? Pellets, plugs, flowers?

Also what do you put them in, or do you just throw them in.

Dry hopping is something Ive always planned to do but just never got around to doing.

After 70 odd AGs its a bit embarrassing.

Cheers

Scott

Have never used flowers in the keg, used all three in the fermenting vessel. In the FV after fermentation has ceased I allow a further week for the yeast to clean up. Hops are added after fermentation has ceased, just tossed in. In the keg..............posted heaps of times re my method, here goes again - I use a 300mm square of swisse voile (in boiling water for a few min first) put the hops in it and tie up with a plastic coated twistie tie, toss it in the keg, when the desired effect is reached (abt 5 days) I fish it out with a length of ss wire.

Disclaimer: These findings are the result of the brewers own tests using his brewing process and equipment, others should conduct their own tests and not assume that these results will be reproduced exactly using their process and equipment.

I've gone the opposite direction.

To my palate, and to those who taste my beer, the aroma i get from a flameout addition is more than adequate. Its been a long time since i dry hopped anything.

Insert Screwy's disclaimer here

Ain't this what brewing is all about? And why we have so many styles. Have tried all sorts of hopping schedules, including the typical UK 75% of total BU by weight for bittering and 25% of total BU by weight at 20 min. More recently I tried the steeping method used by many UK brewers - Chill to 80 then stop chilling, add aroma hops and wait 20 min, then chill to pitching temp and rack off the trub to the fermenter.

As the Dr points out, I have moved to dry hopping due to the effect pleasing my palate. This may well be due to the beer styles and/or the hop varieties I have used. May not achieve the same effect across the board.

Disclaimer: These findings are the result of the brewers own tests using his brewing process and equipment, others should conduct their own tests and not assume that these results will be reproduced exactly using their process and equipment.

I've never really appreciated the use of hop pellets in dry hopping as they are always difficuilt to filter out. As a result you end up with excess trub in the bottles or/and I'm guessing as you are suffering from, excess head. I always find that whole hop flowers are much better to use, as they filter out much easier.
But there are so many other factors so I can't be sure :huh: :huh:

Again.................it depends. If I wet hop in the kettle or dry hop in the FV then the temp is dropped to 1 - 2C for the week - due to the increase in hop protiens I want as much to drop out as possible in the FV prior to kegging or bottling. Results are in many cases dependent upon the particular process used by the brewer.

Therefore:
Disclaimer: These findings are the result of the brewers own tests using his brewing process and equipment, others should conduct their own tests and not assume that these results will be reproduced exactly using their process and equipment.

Scott, you can use any of those three but they have to be contained in something or they will clog the dip tube. You can get one of those stainless hop balls and chuck it in (but they eventually rust and break). I get some of my wifes stockings cut a bit off the bottom, put the hops in and tie it off and chuck that in. You really should try it, very simple and huge flavour.
Cheers
Steve

As above, Steve has found a process that suits him and likes the result............thats brewers being brewers!



Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Jerry]

Scott, you can use any of those three but they have to be contained in something or they will clog the dip tube. You can get one of those stainless hop balls and chuck it in (but they eventually rust and break). I get some of my wifes stockings cut a bit off the bottom, put the hops in and tie it off and chuck that in. You really should try it, very simple and huge flavour.
Cheers
Steve

Thanks Steve.

I really should have done this by now; keep meaning to but just been lazy I guess.

Cheers

Scott

Have never used flowers in the keg, used all three in the fermenting vessel. In the FV after fermentation has ceased I allow a further week for the yeast to clean up. Hops are added after fermentation has ceased, just tossed in. In the keg..............posted heaps of times re my method, here goes again - I use a 300mm square of swisse voile (in boiling water for a few min first) put the hops in it and tie up with a plastic coated twistie tie, toss it in the keg, when the desired effect is reached (abt 5 days) I fish it out with a length of ss wire.

Disclaimer: These findings are the result of the brewers own tests using his brewing process and equipment, others should conduct their own tests and not assume that these results will be reproduced exactly using their process and equipment.


Cheers,

Screwy

Thanks Screwy for taking the time to explain your method. I appreciate it. :beer:

Cheers

Scott

 

[Murcluf]

I've gone the opposite direction.

To my palate, and to those who taste my beer, the aroma i get from a flameout addition is more than adequate. Its been a long time since i dry hopped anything.

Insert Screwy's disclaimer here

Totally agree have noticed the same thing with my beers too by doing this

 

[Bribie G]

I've had a bit of a setback with my hop tea regime. I entered an American Amber in a comp last night at BABBs and it scored a healthy 33 out of 50, but was seriously marked down because whilst the hop aroma was there, it was out of balance with the bitterness, and most people who tried my spare bottle after the comp agreed that it was too bitter for style.
As BjornJ has pointed out on another thread, using boiling water with NZ Hallertau to prepare a batch of hop tea can add around 4 IBU to the finished beer for each addition and would certainly do so in the case of the two 30g additions of Centennial that I used. In fact on those figures I'd say the two hop tea additions of the higher AA Centennial added up to 12 IBU to the finished beer which was well bittered with Chinook to start off with.

OOps. So next time I'll either drop the original bittering right down or just dry hop with pellets with the higher AA American hops. I'll definitely still be using the hop tea but only with lower alpha (eg EKG) hops and keep an eye on the amount of bittering hops in the boil.

Work in progress

OK you *******s I'm going to get Beersmith

Purely to save my brain cells.


Edit: BjornJ not NickJD - rectified above

 

[State of the Mind]

State of Mind, to go back to your original post, what hops did you use in your test?

I used saaz hops when experimenting, and since then I have used Mt hood hops and Stryian Goldings.

This all seems very interesting, especially; "hop teas" which I will have to look into further.

 

[The King of Spain]

Have given up late hopping (10 - 0 min) altogether. Not from reading, from my own results. Find better results using less hops with dry hopping after fermentation has finished in the fermenter and in the keg.

Screwy

Disclaimer: These findings are the result of the brewers own tests using his brewing process and equipment, others should conduct their own tests and not assume that these results will be reproduced exactly using their process and equipment.

Same here. I have a little hop bag with a draw cord to keep it clean.

 

[Ciderman]

I've read this thread and I'm not sure I've got the answer I was looking for. I will just preface this with saying I'm talking about APA/IPA style. I'm relatively new to brewing, but in terms of aromatics and overall hop profile in a beer, I get much more from say adding 30g of Amarillo at flameout than dry hopping with 30g. I had always thought it was the other way around? I recently dry hopped with 40g of Amarillo to a 20 litre batch and it was underwhelming compared to that of late additions. Is this the case for fellow Brewers or do I just need to dry hop with more hops?

 

[Dave70]

I've got a new spin on this which involves inadvertently dumping all the kettle trub into the fermenter. I'll report back with the results this weekend after shes had a week of cold crashing.

 

[Markbeer]

Adding late hops will only work to the extent you want if you are chilling your wort actively. This i am not sure the op was doing.

I have transferred all the hop matter to the fermenter Dave70 dozens of times. The results depend on the variety used.

All late hopping is ftw for me. The taste and aroma is more stable than dry hopping. I normally use 150g in 20l all under 7 mins. Smooth flavour and aroma.

 

[Rocker1986]

I always found dry hopping seemed to have less of an effect with kit beers compared to when I went to all grain. Maybe it was because the kits had no late hops and I've used late hop additions in pretty well every AG batch I've brewed, I don't know. Maybe it depends on beer style and variety of hops used as well. My latest pilsner was all Saaz, with the latest addition going in at 20 minutes, no dry hop, no-chilled too, and at least from the gravity sample there was a definite hop aroma there. I probably wouldn't say that about a pale ale if I'd done that hop schedule with whatever variety I chose for it.

 

[wynnum1]

The other great UK book "Brew your own British Real Ales" by Graham Wheeler suggests adding late hops for the last 10 minutes of the boil - he claims that this is what the traditional breweries British breweries all seem to do - and then some, but not all, his recipes have some dry hopping. I think it depends on the hops, you wouldn't want to late hop with big quantities of, say, Challenger or Target as they are modern high alpha hops, but Goldings and particularly Styrian Goldings lend themselves to late hopping - as with Timothy Taylor's Landlord which is sent through a hop back of Styrians I believe.

I see the OP is in the UK - here in Australia a few of us have been experimenting with making a strong hop tea in a coffee press/plunger (French Press or whatever the term would be in the UK). I currently have a couple of American Amber ales which have had two additions of a hop such as Amarillo - 30g french pressed and added after 4 days, and another 30g french pressed and added into secondary / cold crash. Both turned out nicely subtle and not too over the top in hop flavour and aroma.

Another recent experiment, which I'll be bottling next week, is a simple Pilsener type lager with just one hop - in this case New Zealand Aroma Hallertau flowers. I made 500ml of hop tea out of 45g of these hops, put the hop tea aside, used the 'pressings' as the bittering hops - and yes I got nice bitterness - then I tipped the hop tea into the fermenter at the same time as pitching the yeast. The idea is to see if I can get the best of both worlds out of just one hop. Will report next week on the original thread I raised for this experiment.

That interesting .'pressings' as the bittering hops

 

[Matplat]

I've got a new spin on this which involves inadvertently dumping all the kettle trub into the fermenter. I'll report back with the results this weekend after shes had a week of cold crashing.

I found that when i did this, without having used a hop sock to contain/remove hop sludge after the boil, it came out veerrrrry bitter! even though i chilled it....

 

[Crusty]

I've read this thread and I'm not sure I've got the answer I was looking for. I will just preface this with saying I'm talking about APA/IPA style. I'm relatively new to brewing, but in terms of aromatics and overall hop profile in a beer, I get much more from say adding 30g of Amarillo at flameout than dry hopping with 30g. I had always thought it was the other way around? I recently dry hopped with 40g of Amarillo to a 20 litre batch and it was underwhelming compared to that of late additions. Is this the case for fellow Brewers or do I just need to dry hop with more hops?

I find it unusual that you found an underwhelming result dry hopping @2g/lt. I find 1g/lt more than adequate but each to their own & everyone's got their own personal preferences. I'm pretty happy with 0min additions & rarely dry hop anything anymore unless a recipe specifically asks for it. What I am doing a lot of lately is adding my flavour & aroma addition after the boil. I manually whirlpool for 5mins or so until the temp is @90deg & than chuck in the late additions. I leave it be with the lid on for 10mins & then chill immediately. It adds a complex flavour & aroma addition without the bitterness.

 

[a1149913]

I don't speak for everyone, but late additions mean you can get more flavour without the excessive bitterness you get from long boils with high aa% hops. eg 190g @ flameout - 30min whirlpool above 75C

Make your wort green, you'll never be able to go back

 

[Alex.Tas]

I've got a new spin on this which involves inadvertently dumping all the kettle trub into the fermenter. I'll report back with the results this weekend after shes had a week of cold crashing.

I'm interested to hear how you got on with this experiment Dave70.

I recently read this article: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
which had not so conclusive results regarding trub making an impact on hop aroma. The main outcome i can see from this experiment (based on its sample size) is that clarity improves by dumping all your kettle trub into the fermenter. sounds counter intuitive doesn't it?

I get stacks of kettle trub as I BIAB and don't recirculate, so would love to get some news that it improves my beer if I let it all get in, rather than try and exclude it from the FV which can be a pain if i want it to be...

 

[Danscraftbeer]

The way I see it as an enthusiastic layman with software. Bittering is easy. Aroma is more of the art. To get spectacular results late additions and dry hopping. Not efficient with hops but depends what results you want.
I'm trying to emulate that green can of Pale Ale by Australian Home brewer. Its a beautiful beer. Galaxy Hops. My brew smells very much like theirs. Galaxy for eg. have high AA but recognized for its Aroma qualities so for the fist time I did only late additions. 20min, and flame out. Its well aromatic like that but I will dry hop it as well. :icon_drool2:

Add to: the most spectacular aromatic beer I made had a Hop sock filled with 200g fresh picked Cascade home grown hops in an 18lt keg. :chug:
Damb that was good. Ever heard the description you can smell the hops from the glass at an arms length? B)