Dry Extract Vs Can Goo

[Bongchitis]

Hi all,

I am a kit and addition brewer at the moment and looking to further improve my beers. Next step is a partial Biab APA but even then I need to bring my gravity up with a base malt of some sort.

I was thinking about a comment on one of my beers from a case swap that the extract twang was strong. Im a bit of a noob so I don't have a really good handle on what that twang actually is but if I can get rid of it then do I have to have a handle on it.

So, if i were to use Light spray dried malt instead of canned goo then I can see the benefit of not being boiled to the shithouse to reduce the volume of the goo in manufacture and also the spray dried stuff is not in the can.

Will this get rid of the 'twang' in peoples opinions? ...or any other positive or negative effects?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers............Bong

 

[QldKev]

I guess the real question is; Are you making beer for other peoples taste of yours. I make beer to my personal taste and no longer care what the critics think.

But to more so answer your question, yes LDME will remove the twang; and keep the twangkers happy. It will make your $ per batch a bit higher (still a lot cheaper than mega swill), and you will need to follow the full path of hops (bittering, flavor and aroma). Also getting brew from a high turn over outlet; ie freshes possible kits; will minimize the twang. Also try aging the beer a bit longer, and if you want either filter or use a secondary clearing stage.

Generally an AG will be far superior, but I still make Kit and Dex batches; just for the time factor.

QldKev

 

[deebee]

It does make a difference what other people think of your beers unless you never want to open a bottle when a mate drops by, never want to participate in Christmas Case swaps, never want another brewer to help you isolate a problem in your brews, and you are happy knowing your beer will never be any better than it already is. Even if you are making beer to your tastes alone, your tastes change as your brew over a few years and not many brewers like the bad beer they make even if they do force themselves to drink it. Done this plenty.

I never found any taste difference between dried and liquid extract in the final outcome. They are basically the same but liquid is easier to use. I reckon "extract twang" is a combination of sanitation and fermentation problems that always seem worse in extract beers than in AG beers. I think it is harder to get hops balance right with extract beers too: they can be really off when they have had too much flavouring or aroma hops thrown at them.

It is harder to make a good extract beer than a good AG beer, but it can be done. If you pitch enough good viable yeast, ferment at a constant temperature within the recommended range, allow the beer to remain on the yeast cake for long enough (with extract I reckon this is at least 7 days for an ale, 10-14 is better) and if your sanitation is very good, then you may find that that eliminates any obvious twang.

If you really want to get rid of it, make a small mash tun that will handle 2kg of grain (search forum for instructions) and replace the extract in your recipe with a small mash. My experience is that a mini-mash with a kit is the easiest way to make very good beer with minimum equipment and fuss.

good luck
DB

 

[Adamt]

Extract twang = old extract, dry or liquid. Boil it to freshen it up or get it as fresh as possible.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

It does make a difference what other people think of your beers unless you never want to open a bottle when a mate drops by, never want to participate in Christmas Case swaps, never want another brewer to help you isolate a problem in your brews, and you are happy knowing your beer will never be any better than it already is. Even if you are making beer to your tastes alone, your tastes change as your brew over a few years and not many brewers like the bad beer they make even if they do force themselves to drink it. Done this plenty.

I never found any taste difference between dried and liquid extract in the final outcome. They are basically the same but liquid is easier to use. I reckon "extract twang" is a combination of sanitation and fermentation problems that always seem worse in extract beers than in AG beers. I think it is harder to get hops balance right with extract beers too: they can be really off when they have had too much flavouring or aroma hops thrown at them.

It is harder to make a good extract beer than a good AG beer, but it can be done. If you pitch enough good viable yeast, ferment at a constant temperature within the recommended range, allow the beer to remain on the yeast cake for long enough (with extract I reckon this is at least 7 days for an ale, 10-14 is better) and if your sanitation is very good, then you may find that that eliminates any obvious twang.

If you really want to get rid of it, make a small mash tun that will handle 2kg of grain (search forum for instructions) and replace the extract in your recipe with a small mash. My experience is that a mini-mash with a kit is the easiest way to make very good beer with minimum equipment and fuss.

good luck
DB

Yes good answers DB & QK

While I have no idea of what an AG brewer tastes as an extract twang, possibly by this time next year I will. I'm actually wondering if its not so much an extract twang, but the lack of the "something" an AG brew has. That said, there is a clear difference between an AG and an extract using the same ingredients bar the malts. Obvious, the grain will give a different flavour.

Getting back to the point though, Ive moved from kits to all extract to extarct with mini mashes. (AG will be the next batch). Increasingly, its been my choice of hops and yeast which have dictated the taste, though you can taste the mashed & crystal malts in the mix.

If you get a chance, grab a simple AG recipe, then convert the malt ingredients back to extract. Steep some crystal malt and add your own hop schedule. It isn't that hard though may be a little more expensive this time. See if you like the results. Get the help of someone near you to grab some ingredients if you can't get small totals. And good yeast, one that will add to the flavour. Get yourself a wyeast yeast chart which will help you with learning about the different yeasts.

It's how I've been making my progression - I've been happy with the results (except one - just extract & hops - rather bland - in hindsight, need crystal for colour & body).

Good luck

 

[brettprevans]

I havent actuyally read anyone talking about tined goo twang. which is usually where you get the metalic twang from. old stale malt extract will usually just impart a slightly stale or not fresh taste rather than a twang IMO.

Also if youve got the set up for BIAB why not do all grain? I dont rally see the point of doing a partial BIAB. if you can do a partial then im sure you could not use BIAB (unless you want practise for a AG BIAB).

As for what people think, I guess it does and doesnt matter, if someone doesnt like your beer cause its not to their taste or their "standards" then bugger them. If they dont like it cause there is something genuinely wrong with the beer or they give you constructive critisism so you can improve your beer, then yes itrs good to take notice of what they think.

Fresh is best. Liquid or Dry Malt extract will taste better then tins of goo. You dont even need hop sprayed malt extract so long as your adding hops. just plain good old malt extract will do the job.

watch your temps as the can also be the cause of some of those historical HB crap tastes (like green apple taste)

 

[pint of lager]

Different people percieve faults in beer in different ways. I find many kits have that extract twang, but have also tasted some well made kits that do not have the twang.

Often, kit and partial mash brewers are so used to the extract twang, they don't know it is there. This is common with many faults, it has been called "house mouth." After moving from partials to ag, I went back and sampled my partials, and it was then that the twang became really noticeable.

Like citymorgue said, fresh is best.

Between DME and LME, I would lean towards the freshest LME you can find in a tin. The spray drying process seems a bit harsher due to the high temps. Plus there is a broader range of LME compared to DME.

If you can do a small ag brew, treat yourself to a small batch ag, rather than a partial.

 

[peas_and_corn]

Extract twang = old extract, dry or liquid. Boil it to freshen it up or get it as fresh as possible.

Certainly this is a big factor in it all. Personally I think that it's the old hops that cause the 'twang' rather than the old malt, as when I swapped to using LME and hops rather than the cans the twang left my beer flavours (of course, this happened at the same time as temp control, so that could have had an impact as well).

 

[matti]

Bongchitis,

Your dark syrup ale I drank had no twang to it at all.
It was a malty beer wich could have made a bigger hop addition to IMHO
The paler the ale tend to have more of this Kit twang especially without a proper boil.

As Adamt said.
Boil it!
:icon_offtopic:
Here is a quick run down on a partial.

Mash as per usual. Biab or small esky. 1-3kgs of grain of choice.

Run it out to kettle. 19 Litre from Big W. $20

Boil 60 min with you hop addition.

Add the goo or DME 15 minutes from end and stir so it doesn't get burned.
The S.g is now quite high again.

For K=K They say not to boil the kit with hops. IMO BULL!@#$

A quick boil for 15 minutes won't hurt the hops. You can always add more to boil prior addition of can or at end.

Break the rules just remember to write down what you did if it is a success>
Cheers

Matti

 

[65bellett]

I know this is going away from your initial question of dry vs goo extract. I have gone from extract beers to AG BIAB with out adding any equipment except for the grain bag which cost me max $2.00. By going to BIAB I have been able to find an unlimited amount of recipes, my beer has improved and it is costing me less per batch. Here are a few pics of my very basic set up.

Although I think I got better results from using LME than DME, IMHO I think that my all grain beers are better again.

I hope this was not to preachy or off topic 65 B

 

[drsmurto]

I know this is going away from your initial question of dry vs goo extract. I have gone from extract beers to AG BIAB with out adding any equipment except for the grain bag which cost me max $2.00. By going to BIAB I have been able to find an unlimited amount of recipes, my beer has improved and it is costing me less per batch. Here are a few pics of my very basic set up.

Although I think I got better results from using LME than DME, IMHO I think that my all grain beers are better again.

I hope this was not to preachy or off topic 65 B

Nice work 65B. Your kitchen looks smaller than the one i had in the UK and that was an oversized bathroom and housed the laundry as well....

Tis impressive to see the ingenuity as well, OH&S ppl will be cringing about the hop bag dangling like that but think its bloody MacGyver like.

My only query is how the plastic tub likes have the boiling pot in contact with it - even with the ice water i would have thought you were in melting plastic territory.....?

 

[65bellett]

Nice work 65B. Your kitchen looks smaller than the one i had in the UK and that was an oversized bathroom and housed the laundry as well....

Tis impressive to see the ingenuity as well, OH&S ppl will be cringing about the hop bag dangling like that but think its bloody MacGyver like.

My only query is how the plastic tub likes have the boiling pot in contact with it - even with the ice water i would have thought you were in melting plastic territory.....?

Dr Smurto, My kitchen is also the laundry and dining room and is also the size of n over sized bathroom. That is the grain bag hanging from the curtain rail which I pinch from the spare bedroom when I brew. As far as the plastic melting so far I have not had any problems.

At the moment I brew 12.5 ltr batches. My stove top using two burners will get 16 litres of wort to a rolling boil in about 15-20 minutes with a bit of lid action. Using the ice bath I can get the wort down to mid 20 deg c in about 20 minutes. I make ice like a mad man for about two days and the plastic box I use as the bath is the box I keep all my brewing stuff in so it gets a clean at least once a week. The only real problem I have encountered is the humidity gets a bit extreme during a 60 minute boil.

65 b

 

[sid]

I have found in my kit beers that if I use less dextrose and use more malt, dry or liquid it gives you a better beer without the twang your talking of. Cost is a little more, but worth it and it's good just to experiment.
I generally use 1/2 to 1kg of malt (dry or liquid) then throw in around 200gm-400gm dextrose to up the alchohol a bit, depends on what alchohol % you like, I usually go around the 5% mark

 

[Bongchitis]

Thanks for the reply guys, very informative. :beer:

Firstly, i have never boiled a kit or can of extract to 'rejuvinate' it so I will definitely give that a go. the consensus seems to be that this is a good idea.

Secondly, I have just drank the first bottle of a lighter kit beer brewed with kit, can of malt extract, 150g steeped medium crystal and 150g dry Wheat malt extract and hops for flavour/aroma and it was really nice, no noticable twang but again I'm not 100% sure what I am looking for. Perhaps as the complexity and gravity of your beers increases it masks the twang a little also. The dark ale that matti speaks of was basically the recipe in the previous sentence but with a dark kit, a bit more crystal and golden syrup so I might have disguised the twang.

Thirdly, my train of thought for the partial Biab was to not to have to get big pots and stuff like that. I have a 20L stainless jobbie from K-mart that would facilitate a can of extract + partial Biab = full batch of improved beer. Probably end up doing what 65b has done and do 1/2 size batch, AG Biab. Nice!

Cost is not really an issue as I am not a big drinker and brew to enjoy the process and of course the beer but time is a bit of a factor and I guess there is no real time difference between partial and full Biab...... I think I just convinced myself. Can you do a Concentrated Biab that you add more water to at the fermenter or do you need a certain amount of water to do the job. I think I need to read the Biab thread. :icon_offtopic:

Still good to know though when I want to do a cheap and not so nasty beer, a few pointers to get the best results, even if using a kit + bits.

Thanks again but if there are anymore ideas then please send them through.

Cheers..........Bong

 

[kabooby]

I think I need to read the Biab thread. :icon_offtopic:

You will need a few days. That thread is longer than the Hume Hwy