Doughing In Order?

[sinkas]

Hi all,
Might seem like a odd question, but am I mean to to put the water in first or the grain? IE do I add water to grain in the Tun, or grain to water in the tun?

So far I have been adding water to the grain, but I feel maybe I am doing it round the wrong way..?

 

[Stuster]

Hi all,
Might seem like a odd question, but am I mean to to put the water in first or the grain? IE do I add water to grain in the Tun, or grain to water in the tun?

So far I have been adding water to the grain, but I feel maybe I am doing it round the wrong way..?

If you can, underletting is much easier. Far fewer grain balls than water to grain from the top. I've never done grain to water so no comment on that.

 

[niceshoes]

I put in foundation water (cover the false bottom) then grain then water again while stiring.

 

[Ross]

Hi all,
Might seem like a odd question, but am I mean to to put the water in first or the grain? IE do I add water to grain in the Tun, or grain to water in the tun?

So far I have been adding water to the grain, but I feel maybe I am doing it round the wrong way..?

In answer to your question. Yes, you have been doing it the wrong way round - WATER FIRST.

cheers Ross

 

[Guest Lurker]

Neither approach is right or wrong, brewers do it both ways, or using a bit of a combo, and there are advantages to each, depends what works best for you.

If you always use the same batch size, and know your temp losses well, grain first then underlet the water might be best.

If you use variable batch sizes, and have trouble predicting tun temp losses, then all the water in first, get that to the correct temp after all the tun heating has happened, then add the grain may help to hit your strike temp.

 

[chovain]

In chapter 18.4 of How To Brew (here), Palmer says to pre-heat the mash-tun (then throw out the pre-heat water), add a gallon of strike water, add your grain, then carefully stir until all the grain is wet (be really careful about oxidation here though). Once all the grain is wet, you can add the remainder of your strike water.

Edit: Heh - yeah, what they all said. I'm a bit slow today

 

[warrenlw63]

I add the water first too then dump in the grain. Reasons being I know the water in the mashtun is at the exact temperature for doughing in.

As much as the idea of underletting really appeals to me. I've never been able to figure if the water coming from the HLT doesn't suffer some form of temp drop on the way to the tun.

How do you underletters monitor and/or compensate your temps from the HLT to the mash? :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Stuster]

Warren, it does drop in temp running along the hose to the mash tun. The water in my HLT is usually about 9-11C higher than the mash temp I'm aiming for, a bigger difference than when I was just pouring it in. But it saves stirring time so my laziness insists on keeping this technique. :lol:

 

[Guest Lurker]

I add the water first too then dump in the grain. Reasons being I know the water in the mashtun is at the exact temperature for doughing in.

As much as the idea of underletting really appeals to me. I've never been able to figure if the water coming from the HLT doesn't suffer some form of temp drop on the way to the tun.

How do you underletters monitor and/or compensate your temps from the HLT to the mash? :unsure:

Warren -

Eggsactly. Hitting strike temp is the important thing, knocking off a few enzymes where the hot water meets the mash, dough balls are secondary. On my system for a 45 l batch I will often underlet, cos it reduces dough balls, and I know from experience the answer is 5 degrees lost from the HLT. But if the strike temp is particulary important on that batch, or a different batch size, water first every time, get the water to within 0.5 deg of correct temp, and then you know you will hit strike temp, because you have removed the losses from the calculation.

 

[Steve]

Water to grain for me.....i have it down pat. I have strike temp 6 degrees hotter than what I want to mash at. Pour in - good stir ( I dont get dough balls), check temp. I hit it everytime.
Cheers
Steve

 

[tangent]

underletting heats up your hardware first, not the grain. It's a more gentle approach IMO. Everything is eventually going to even out at the same temp anyway but I'd rather not hit the grist with hot water first.

 

[warrenlw63]

Thanks gents.

Looks like next time I add my strike liquor from the HLT I'd best start monitoring the temps and resultant drop. I do like the idea of underletting, just never gotten out of my comfort zone to use it.

Warren -

 

[sinkas]

Thanks for the replies, Ive treid doing the grain to water this time, see how it goes.

 

[RobB]

I use my mash water to pre-heat the tun. That is, I add the water at a few degrees above my strike temperature and close the lid. After a few minutes, the mash tun has sucked a little heat out of the water and everything has equalised (hopefully at strike temperature). I then dump my grain in. It just seems simpler and a little less wasteful than tipping out your pre-heat water.

 

[Trough Lolly]

Without getting too technical, I've found that a lot of doughballs occur if you dump the grains into the water too fast. (I also add water first then grains). I get around this problem by whirlpooling the strike water and then gently pouring in the grist - it keeps the whole thing moving without having to stir and oxidise the mash and allows me to add virtually all of the grain without having to stir at all. It takes some practice but once you have the "mash tun whirlpool" procedure down pat, it makes mashing a lot easier and less stressful.

Cheers,
TL

 

[chovain]

I use my mash water to pre-heat the tun. That is, I add the water at a few degrees above my strike temperature and close the lid. After a few minutes, the mash tun has sucked a little heat out of the water and everything has equalised (hopefully at strike temperature). I then dump my grain in. It just seems simpler and a little less wasteful than tipping out your pre-heat water.

That's fine once you're a bit more practised, or know the thermal mass of you equipment (for ProMash et al to run the numbers for you). For the newbies, it can be a bit hard to know by how much to overheat the strike water. Preheating just reduces the thermal mass to something close to zero. As a negative, it makes the thermal mass of the equipment more variable.

I personally don't actually throw out my pre-heat water. It goes into a small pot while I'm doughing in. It then goes back into the HLT to be used in the sparge.

 

[andrewg]

Without getting too technical, I've found that a lot of doughballs occur if you dump the grains into the water too fast. (I also add water first then grains). I get around this problem by whirlpooling the strike water and then gently pouring in the grist - it keeps the whole thing moving without having to stir and oxidise the mash and allows me to add virtually all of the grain without having to stir at all. It takes some practice but once you have the "mash tun whirlpool" procedure down pat, it makes mashing a lot easier and less stressful.

Cheers,
TL

I find a slow steady addition of grains to water and an extra-large whisk (my woeful excuse for a mash paddle) to stir in the grains prevents doughballs & hit temp every time too.
The whirlpooling idea sounds fantastic, but not so practical for those of us who don't have a cylinderical tun.
cheers
HStB

 

[Ross]

The question asked was whether to add the grain 1st or the water 1st & the correct answer unless you like creating yourself problems is, the water 1st.
Water poured quickly on top of dry grain will cause dough balls.
Under letting which wasn't part of the question is basically the same as adding the grain 2nd. By dumping the grain on top, I'm basically underletting with water, just far quicker & more efficiently (on my set up), as I have a fairly tall narrow mashtun & under letting via the exit hole takes far too long. If I speed up the process, the grain lifts & pours out over the top of the tun.
Takes under 5 seconds to pour the grain in & is fully stirred within another 10 seconds.

Cheers Ross

 

[tangent]

sorry Ross, but IMO i think that's a bit misleading. i always add water to grain and stir. mostly because i don't like the flour blowing all over the place and when i was underletting there was no more work than turning on the HLT tap and off again. This regulates the flow and spreads it through your braid/manifold and through the bottom of the grist (pre-heating hardware at the same time).
Dumping all of your grist on top of water will not guarantee no dough-balls. I know you're not suggesting this but hard and fast rules are hard to break for newbies.

edit - maybe my brewdays are a little more sedate than yours where speed isn't of the essence, but i only brew one batch a day and don't have rugrats.

 

[Duff]

I crush into the mash tun, then add water.

In a constant stream from the HLT handsfree it is very easy to stir continuously until you reach your desired grist to water ratio with no doughballs.