Dough In

[Bribie G]

Mentally rehearsing my first AG for next Thursday if Allah spares me... and wondering about dough in.

I note that many AG brewers refer to doughing in as just chucking in the grain but my reading of Palmer etc describes it more specifically as the stage where the grain absorbs water, softens the starches to a gel and wakes up the enzymes and that some brewers 'dough in' at a low temperature then up the temp for the mash proper.

I don't intend to get that technical yet, but it occurs to me that the first few minutes of my mash (BIAB) are going to consist of a lot of frantic stirring, thermometer checking, swearing :blink: and most likely additions of hot or cold water until I get to my planned temperature, and that the doughing in stage will hopefully give me a small window of opportunity before the main enzyme activity starts. Hopefully with BIAB I'll get a more accurate strike than with a thicker mash.

Question for experienced AG ers, Say with a mash at 65* how many minutes would I have to do adjustments without compromising efficiency?

Or should I just wing it and not worry too much at this stage?

 

[Adamt]

RDWHAHB.

 

[Dunno]

Hey BribieG,

I have only done 2 BIAB batches so far (both in the last 2 weeks, 3rd is planned for next week), but for what it's worth, I followed Pistol Patch's idea with the escalator mash. Chucked the grain in shortly after flame on and brought the mash up to temp with the grain in. It seemed to work well but in hind sight, I realised I missed the mash out. From what I have read on here, it is much more important to mash out with BIAB than the traditional brewing methods. I will be making sure I include this step for next weeks brew as think it may have had a big impact on my efficiency.

Like I said, inexperienced, but sometimes it can help.

Dunno

 

[newguy]

Just dump in the water, wait 5 minutes, then check your temperature. Stir at that point if you can see starch balls. Adjust temp up or down at that point in time, but only if you're really drastically out (say 3-4C or more). Anything less than that, and it's not worth the grey hairs. Just let it go - the beer will still turn out great.

 

[buttersd70]

Chill, Winston.
Personally I'm not a fan of starting low and raising to temp, unless It's being done for a reason. eg prehydration (in preperation for jumping the mash), protein rest, etc. If you're not doing these things, just dough at strike imo.

Will being off effect efficiency, or the mash as a whole? For a 'standard' mash, not really. Perhaps technically, but not practically. It shouldn't have much bearing on efficiency at all, as long as the temperature is within main sacchirification range of 60-70. Enzyme activity will still be there, so conversion will still happen.....the main difference is in which enzyme will have the most beneficial conditions to work. But anywhere 64-67C is in the range of compromise between alpha and beta anyway. The time it takes to get the temp where you need it (if the strike temp is missed) isn't going to effect things in a big way: bothe enzymes will still be working, one will just be working a little harder than the other, instead of equally, for that period of time. No biggie. The only time it becomes a real issue is when you are working right at the edges of the sacch range, where you are deliberately trying to limit one enzyme or the other,without denaturing it entirely.

So RDWHAHB.

edit: agree with Newguy in principle, but bear one thing in mind....knowing that you're likely to be looking at fairly low grav English in the not too distant, once you start looking at lower grav beers (1030-1040), accurate temp gets more important as the gravity drops, because you're fighting to retain body when you get really low OG, and you need the dextrins.

 

[Bribie G]

Cheers, I'll certainly RDWHAHB or even RDWHAPilsnerUrquell as my tribute to the Brewing Gods

Glad to hear that it's not too critical.
Also I take the point about mashout, with my 40L urn I'll be able to do a fairly reasonable mashout so interested to see what efficiency I hit.

Edit: I'll be heading more for Abbot Ale, Courage Directors Bitter or Brains SA Gold strength, at least 1050, so that's reassuring. not that I have anything against low grav. quaffing bitters but keen to recreate the glorious ales of the Pre World War 1 era that my great grandads and great great uncles used to rave on about. By gum tha knows, that were a proper paaa'nt lad.

 

[buttersd70]

Only 4 more sleeps, my man....exciting. got your recipe sorted?

 

[datman510]

Chill, Winston.

gold

 

[Bribie G]

Only 4 more sleeps, my man....exciting. got your recipe sorted?

Well 4 sleeps to BIG shopping day at Becon catering supplies for the Urn then over to Ross at Underwood, then spend the evening calibrating, sanitising etc and brew on Thurs.

Planned recipe is pure and simple.

25L into the fermenter allowing for eventual 24L bottling

5kg Maris Otter floor malted
200 g Medium Crystal
100 g Dark Crystal

45 g Fuggles 60 mins
20 g EKG 20 mins
15 g Styrian Goldings (a Fuggles derivative so name strikes me as confusing) 5 mins

BIAB, No Chill, WYeast W Yorks 1469
18 degrees
rack to secondary
gelatine
polyclar

It's going to seem like climbing Pen-y-Ghent (plus Whernside in the same afternoon!) for the first time but exciting.

 

[buttersd70]

:icon_drool2: is an understatement.
Fuggle EKG and Styrian..... I can't think of 3 things that go together better....(except maybe Jennifer Ellison, Abi Titmuss and Tina O'Brien) :beerbang:

 

[Fermented]

Looks to be a great recipe! Wish I was up your way for the taste test.

Butters: You're a complete lech. Man after my own heart.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Bribie G]

Looks to be a great recipe! Wish I was up your way for the taste test.
Cheers - Fermented.

Have rellies Beacon Hill. Driving down early Feb and meeting up with Quantocks for a coldie (Lord Nelson or Newtown or wherever) and also bringing down a case of Yorkie so give us a bell if your'e up for an ale or two somewhere (It will be a test to see if it travels well, I don't think the original Yorkshire brewers had any conception of driving a thousand ks !!) Maybe I should brew an India Pale Ale for the trip, they had that one pretty well worked out

 

[Fermented]

Beacon Hill? About fifteen minutes from here when it's not peak hours.

Yes, would like to meet up with you and Quantocks. Q and myself have been talking about it for ages but between business taking us out of action from time to time it just hasn't happened. Feb is nice and quiet for me.

I would suggest the Lord as it's predictably good but am open to suggestions. I don't know Newtown so well anymore and late trains from there are shite.

IPA? Oooh - now you're talking.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Bribie G]

Beacon Hill? About fifteen minutes from here when it's not peak hours.

Don't remind me. Regular conversation in the car is: Ooooh, Chatswood, shouldn't we have turned off at Pymble? Know the area well. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Fermented]

Pymble? Why go down Mona Vale Rd? Does your co-pilot want to go to the fruit and veg place before the turn off to the Forest or is it the home makers' centre? Women and their navigation...

Keep going south until you hit Boundary Rd, turn left and it's a gunbarrel run to Beacon Hill... aside from the twisty turny bits.

Boundary Rd is about two minutes north of me. I'm just south of Albert. Depending on your time of day for arrival / tiredness state, maybe grab a liquid lunch at the Orchard?

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Damian44]

Heres a link to Thirsty Boy post reguarding Biab and mash in.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...1694&st=960

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Certainly relax - the brewing process is much more forgiving than peoples obsession with accuracy (I definitely include myself there) would lead you to believe.

I diverge from PP's original guide in the dough in department. I think that what PP wrote is an early version of the technique and while it will work, is not the best nor the easiest way to do it. I don't think that PP himself does it that way anymore - at least nobody corrected me last time I said he didn't, so I assume I am right. i am not aware of anyone else who actually does it that way on an ongoing basis.

A better way to manage than the guide suggest is -

*Heat your water up in your pot, without the bag in it - until the water temperature (remember to stir it before taking a reading) is 2.5C above your desired mash temperature

*Put your bag into the pot - pour in your grain stirring well

*Take a temperature after stirring, waiting for a few minutes and stirring again

*Now if needed, turn on your burner (low and slow if you have one of the big buggers) and stirring constantly bring the temperature up to 1.0C below your desired temp - flame out and stir, take a temp - there should be a little overshoot after you turn off the flame which will land you on your target. If not, flame on and creep it up to your desired temp.

*You should be sitting smack on your target temp 5 minutes or so after you pour in your grain. Start your 1 hr mash now.

Most likely the 2.5C differential will see you hitting strike a little lower than target - after a few brews you will learn how it goes on your system and be able to dial it in. Personally, I would prefer to start a little low and bring it up, than to start high. Heat is easier to add than take away.

I always use pro-mash, it has a strike temperature calculator. You tell it how much grain you have and how much strike water you are using - and it tells you what temperature to heat the water to. Always gets me to within half a degree of the temp I want in BIAB. Pro-mash has a free trial version, the strike temperature calculator works fine in it and will do even if you never ever pay.

I am a brewer who believes that hitting your dough in temperature is important - unlike some of the guys above, I would be horrified if I missed my strike temp by 3C and didn't fix it inside of 5 minutes - fortunately, with BIAB and the rough method I describe above, its unlikely to ever happen to you.

TB

 

[reviled]

Ive been adding my grain (about 4-5kg) at about 1.5*c above my desired strike temp, and I find that by the time ive stirred it all in, im bang on target and hardly ever need to adjust the temp initially...

Also, I dont get the whole bring the temp up before adding the grain bag? Is this to stop it melting? Ive been adding my water with the grain bag in there, bringing it up to temp with the grain bag, then just adding the grain, havnt had a problem so far...

 

[Crunched]

FWIW, I add water to the kettle, bring it up to about 2*C above strike temp, then add the bag, then add the grain and stir. I did this today and managed to hit my 66*C spot on. I read in the BIAB guide PP's instruction to add the grain and then bring the water up to temp - but couldn't understand why, so I stuck with what other's are doing - add the grain once temp is reached.

 

[Dunno]

Most likely the 2.5C differential will see you hitting strike a little lower than target - after a few brews you will learn how it goes on your system and be able to dial it in. Personally, I would prefer to start a little low and bring it up, than to start high. Heat is easier to add than take away.




Planning my 3rd BIAB for the end of the week, will take this info on board, thanks Thirsty Boy.


Dunno