Dms. What To Do?

[starkesbier]

Hey,

I just opened my cube and got a strong smell of baked beans/cooked veges which is a classic DMS smell. When I think about it I only boiled for 60 minutes when I should have boiled for 90. Any suggestions? Or just pitch and pray?

Cheers
Starkesbier

 

[hoppy2B]

Throw in some steak and eggs and you'll have a meal. :lol:

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

dont know, ive not had it happen. I've always done 90 min boils since shown how to AG.

why not just go ahead and see how much comes out through fermentation, so yeah pitch well and good luck.

theres a good little read here

link

 

[manticle]

Put it back in the kettle, reboil and re-cube.

You will get a bit less volume and more concentrated wort but can dilute if you think it's necessary.

 

[Dave70]

Well, you could make a lager and tell everyone that's how it's supposed to taste. Or not.
Re boil it and do what you can to get the temp down as fast as possible.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

re-boiling might well work, but if you dont want to do that, just pitch it - but make sure you pitch a nice big healthy dose of yeast, oxygenate well and perhaps ferment a little warm. DMS is a volatile and will be at least partly scrubbed out by vigorous CO2 action. so make sure its vigorous.

 

[wessmith]

What would help here would be some info on the type/make of malt that was actually used. There are types of pale/lager malt that have been malted to deliberately include the precursors to DMS - think about who or what the malt was originally produced for. It would also be interesting to be a fly on the wall and observe the boil. I get a feeling that a "rolling boil" to many brewers is actually little more than a strong simmer. I rarely hear the term "jumping boil" used to describe a boil - and that is certainly what you need for the first 20 minutes or so (with the lid off) if you want to drive off the malt derived DMS.

Wes

 

[Superoo]

Might reboiling add hop bitterness and reduce hop flavour ?

(just a query that I dont know is valid or not)...

cheers

 

[starkesbier]

What would help here would be some info on the type/make of malt that was actually used. There are types of pale/lager malt that have been malted to deliberately include the precursors to DMS - think about who or what the malt was originally produced for. It would also be interesting to be a fly on the wall and observe the boil. I get a feeling that a "rolling boil" to many brewers is actually little more than a strong simmer. I rarely hear the term "jumping boil" used to describe a boil - and that is certainly what you need for the first 20 minutes or so (with the lid off) if you want to drive off the malt derived DMS.
Wes

Type of malt was Weyermann pilsner which to be honest I've never had a problem with before. And my boil was much more vigorous than normal as I was slightly under my preboil gravity so I wanted to make sure I hit my post boil gravity. I think I boiled off about 15% from memory which is much higher than my normal 5-10%. Lid was off. So really I can't see what went wrong except maybe not boiling long enough.


I have pitched the yeast which already has a krausen after 12 hours and if a vigorous fermentation doesn't do the trick I am going to try bubbling CO2 through the beer to scrub out the DMS as suggested in Duke of Paddy's post.

Thanks for all the info. I'll follow up when I am done.

Starkesbier

 

[wessmith]

I have pitched the yeast which already has a krausen after 12 hours and if a vigorous fermentation doesn't do the trick I am going to try bubbling CO2 through the beer to scrub out the DMS as suggested in Duke of Paddy's post.

Thanks for all the info. I'll follow up when I am done.

Starkesbier
[/quote]


Starkesbier, its not so much the length of the boil, but getting that "jumping boil" going for the first 20 mins or so. By jumping I mean literally that - the wort should be erupting! If you dont have sufficient head space in the kettle this can be a bit of a problem. Many years back in the early days of my brewing I was lucky to have the advice of Herman Feige, German trained and the original brewer at the George IV pub in Picton. Herman called around one brew day and studiously eyed off my boiling kettle - "Ves" he said, "Das is not a boil - you must haf a jumping boil" He turned up the gas to high and we had a jumping boil and my beers have been the better for it ever since.

With our commercial kettles we can get a massive jumping boil going, especially in the electric 500 and 1000 litre systems. This is because we have an "asymmetric boil" caused by having the elements located together on one side of the kettle to give a rolling wort turnover (as well as the jumping boil). This vigorous boil is also important in promoting the eventual flocculation of trub.

Hope that helps.

Wes

 

[Hippy]

I had a similar problem with a brew once and stumbled on a fairly simple solution if you keg. As you are carbonating it, give it heaps of pressure let it absorb then purge it with your pressure relief valve. I found that after I did this a couple of times the DMS flavours diminished dramatically. Just need to make sure you give the keg a little more head space than usual when you are filling it.

 

[manticle]

Might reboiling add hop bitterness and reduce hop flavour ?

(just a query that I dont know is valid or not)...

cheers

It would depend on the brew and the later hopping schedule but generally yes. A bit. I've reboiled brews before and they've been fine and I'd rather some extra bitterness (which you can dilute back anyway as you'll lose volume) and some hop flavour loss (which you can compensate for by adding some extra hops late in the boil or in the cube) than cooked, canned vegetables.

 

[wessmith]

I forgot to comment on the malt type - Weyermann Pils certainly does not have a record of throwing off DMS, Bo-Pils I have not used so cant comment. But many of the malts available now and intended for mega lagers or Asian lagers certainly do throw some DMS.

Have a look at this page from Bairds Malts - you will see that Bairds can produce malt with and without DMS pre-cursors (as can any maltster BTW)

http://www.bairds-malt.co.uk/Brewing.html

Wes

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I disagree with Wes a fair bit. I don't think you need, nor is it in my experience anything like commercial standard to have wort jumping all over the place. Assuming you have a decent boil vigour, there is decent bubble action hitting the surface and there is a nice rolling action to the boil - then DMS works on a "half life" type scenario. More vigorous is not really that much better and certainly not necessary. A much more active boil is just a waste of energy and can present its own quality issues.

Given the choice between a jumping boil for 60min and just a normal rolling boil for 90mins - the 90min boil will do the job better IMO. Of course, if you do both then you are right from both directions.

This is an easy one - if your current normal boil vigour normally results in no DMS problem with a 90min boil, then its not a problem with boil vigour, its a problem with changed boil length - change back. If you still get a problem, then try a more vigorous boil.

 

[wessmith]

I disagree with Wes a fair bit. I don't think you need, nor is it in my experience anything like commercial standard to have wort jumping all over the place. Assuming you have a decent boil vigour, there is decent bubble action hitting the surface and there is a nice rolling action to the boil - then DMS works on a "half life" type scenario. More vigorous is not really that much better and certainly not necessary. A much more active boil is just a waste of energy and can present its own quality issues.

Given the choice between a jumping boil for 60min and just a normal rolling boil for 90mins - the 90min boil will do the job better IMO. Of course, if you do both then you are right from both directions.

This is an easy one - if your current normal boil vigour normally results in no DMS problem with a 90min boil, then its not a problem with boil vigour, its a problem with changed boil length - change back. If you still get a problem, then try a more vigorous boil.

Hi TB, I said a "jumping boil" for the first 20 mins or so - not 60 mins. All the craft and regional sized breweries I have seen in action in Germany have always had a jumping boil and all for the same reason - drive off those "malt volatiles" before letting the kettle settle down for a more moderate rolling boil. This has also been our experience with micro brewed beers in our systems with a 60 to 70 min boil followed by a 10 min whirlpool. Certainly had our share of problem malts and worts over the years but DMS has never been one of them. As I indicated in my "fly on the wall" comment - I think you will find a big difference in the interpretation of a good boil.

Getting a bit more techo, I wonder how many brewers having problems with DMS are using "no cool" methods and holding their wort at 85C or more in a cube until ambient temps slowly cool the wort. That is not good practice in my book if you want to completely eliminate DMS

Agree with your comments about not stressing if you dont have a DMS issue - if it aint broke, dont fix it...

Wes

 

[hoppy2B]

:huh: I don't know. DMS has a boiling point of 37 degrees celcius and manages to fill the air pocket in your cube without fermentation occurring. If you opened your cube periodically you could get some out that way. I'm just wondering if a slower ferment would give it more time to work it's way out of your beer.
You don't boil when distilling spirits due to their lower boiling point in comparison with water, so is it really necessary for fermentation to be vigorous?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hi TB, I said a "jumping boil" for the first 20 mins or so - not 60 mins. All the craft and regional sized breweries I have seen in action in Germany have always had a jumping boil and all for the same reason - drive off those "malt volatiles" before letting the kettle settle down for a more moderate rolling boil. This has also been our experience with micro brewed beers in our systems with a 60 to 70 min boil followed by a 10 min whirlpool. Certainly had our share of problem malts and worts over the years but DMS has never been one of them. As I indicated in my "fly on the wall" comment - I think you will find a big difference in the interpretation of a good boil.

Getting a bit more techo, I wonder how many brewers having problems with DMS are using "no cool" methods and holding their wort at 85C or more in a cube until ambient temps slowly cool the wort. That is not good practice in my book if you want to completely eliminate DMS

Agree with your comments about not stressing if you dont have a DMS issue - if it aint broke, dont fix it...

Wes

actually, the cubing thing is one of the bits of input that solidifies my opinion around this topic - theoretically, i see no great reason for a violent boil, even for the first little while, and to be honest the practise of german brewers is often far more about quite slavish adherrance to traditional methods even if thre is no good reason for it, so i dont really count what they do as a "reason" per se - practically, i see plenty of boils that are no where near jumping that dont result in DMS issues and at home - i both boil at the "gentle" end of the rolling boil spectrum AND no chill, and have never had a DMS issue.

still - its not like dialling up your boil is going to hurt unless you go completely overboard, so i reckon hit it at both ends as a first response if a problem pops up... then start tweaking back until you work out where it came from. Mostly i think its going to be malt - something with a high ssm level that you just weren't expecting and your technique isn't tailored to deal with.

Brewing is an intersting craft - lots and lots of way to get it right, and surprisingly few ways to get it irrevocably wrong. I like that.

 

[starkesbier]

It's early days yet but the baked bean smell seems to be reducing significantly as the yeasties do their thing. Fingers crossed the whole problem will disappear and the beer will end up tasting alright. Will keep this up to date as the beer progresses.

Cheers
Starkesbier

 

[Florian]

I've got two kegged batches of Boh Pils, and both are showing more and more signs of DMS the older they get. I noticed about a week ago a corn flavour and aroma, which seems to have gotten stronger since, and at least the aroma has become almost unbearable for me the last few days. Same keg was absolutely fine a few weeks ago and got great comments from brewers and non brewers at a BBQ.
At the same time I noticed a hint of that same aroma in a freshly carbonated keg.

Is this part of what DMS normally does though, getting stronger with age? Or am I getting something else here? The newer batch used part of the yeast cake from older one, both batches had about 95% Wey FM BP.

 

[sim]

Bacteria related?