Dark Lager..which Hops?

[Noxious]

Hi all,
It's been ages since I came onto this forum. Due to the cooler weather, I'm going to do a couple of lagers. One of them a Dark Lager, which I have never brewed before.
Just curious as to what hops would work with this kind of recipe..
(Also feel free to critique my recipe ideas, except for the fact that it is not AG! :lol: )
Liquid Amber Malt Extract 1.5 kg
Light Dry Malt Extract 1.0 kg
Munich Grain 0.5 kg
Chocolate Grain 0.5 kg
SafLager S-23

I was thinking of adding either -
Super Alpha (12%) 15 g for 30 mins (17 IBU)
Hallertau N.Z (8%) 20 g for 5 mins (4 IBU)

or

Willamette (6%) 20 g for 45 mins (13 IBU)
Hallertau N.Z (8%) 20 g for 10 mins (8 IBU)

But as I have;
a) Never used Willmette or Super Alpha
B) Never brewed a dark lager..
I would like some ideas from those who have..
Cheers all

Edit: Forgot to add the brew will be 25 L volume (not 23 L)
Estimated O.G = 1043
Esitimated F.G = 1017
Estimated Alc. % = 4.5

 

[glaab]

a bit heavy on the choc, aint it?

 

[Noxious]

a bit heavy on the choc, aint it?

I have no idea, I've never used choc malt before to be honest. I'll take your word for it though
How much would you recommend?
And in that case would you simply replace any removed choc with vienna or munich to keep the estimated O.G up?
Thanks for your help!
What do you think of the hop choices too?
Cheers

 

[Nashmandu]

Just some ideas off the top of my head. For a more 'new world'/experimental style dark lager, amarillo could be an interesting choice ..the whole orange and chocolate combination. Or just stick to a noble hop...tettnang, saaz, fuggles, EKG are all fine. Read about each one to decide which characteristics are most to your liking .

Again off the top of my head chocolate should be more like 200 grams, throw in 200 grams of caramunich to compensate.

 

[Noxious]

I have some amarillo already so that might be an idea, thanks for that!
I have tried Saaz, fuggles and EKG before, although I used the latter two in an IPA so it was a bit of a different story than a lager..
Guess I'll have to do some searching for some caramunich malt
Cheers

 

[warra48]

I'd limit your choc malt to no more than 100 gr.
Yep, you can up the Munich or Vienna to make up for the loss of colour.

I have a Munich Dunkel fermenting at present. I used all Tetnanger.

Here's my recipe:
Batch Size: 23.00 L
OG: 1.05o SG
Estimated Color: 31.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25 IBU

Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 84.38 %
Munich 2 (25.0 EBC) Grain 10.42 %
Wheat Malt, Dark (Weyermann) (13.8 EBC) Grain 2.08 %
Caraaroma (390.0 EBC) Grain 2.04 %
Carafa Special T2 (1150.0 EBC) Grain 1.08 %
Tettnang [4.10 %] (60 min) Hops 25 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient Misc
1 Pkgs Southern German Lager (White Labs #WLP838) Yeast-Lager 4.5 litre starter

Mashed at 66C
Total Grain Weight: 4800.00 gm

 

[boobiedazzler]

Hi Warra48 - why do you say limit the choc to 100 grams ? I was researching a few recipes for one I did two days ago, and ended up using 250 of choc and 250 of brown, on a base of ale malt. At the time it didnt seem over the top, based on other recipes I read.

If its burnt tannin taste thats going to be an issue (which i suspected, so played it carefully) I added the specs. for only 30 minutes, not the full hour of the mash.

If its going to be too sweet, then Im stuffed unless I do a mini boil now and add some more bitterness.

 

[glaab]

250 of choc is ok if your'e making a porter or such but I wouldn't be putting much in a lager, just using it for a bit of color, I was sort of expecting the OP to come back and say he meant to type 0.05kg

 

[manticle]

Agree on the amount of choc. I usually use ~150g in porters and stouts along with other roasted grains for extra colour and roastiness. I've just started using carafa spec II as well which gives a lot of colour and some chocalatey type flavours without any harshness.

For hops I'd look at noble hops unless you're particularly wanting to experiment with citrus/fruity flavours fro american/new zealand hops. Tettnanger is a favourite of mine and I think it would work well. Really you can use any hop you like the flavour of - it depends on what you're hoping for.

Clean beer, malty beer, fruity beer, hop showcase, dessert beer, refreshing beer, session beer, experimental beer, baltic porter??

Choc won't add much to the OG as it has very little sugar left in it. However best to check - you know that munich and vienna both need mashing? I'm assuming you do because this is in the beginner AG/partial section.

 

[Daniel.lear]

Erm, one thing about your recipie, the munich grain will need to be mashed.

Leary

 

[mckenry]

Just curious as to what hops would work with this kind of recipe..

Perle would be superb. You can use it as a single hop. Primarily it is (was) used for bittering, but it is excellent late too.
It is under-rated, but gaining popularity.

Edit - yes, must mash munich.

 

[Noxious]

Thanks for all the info everyone,
I will definately not use 0.5 kg of choc, and now also feel a bit stupider as I made a brew last year that tasted awesome and that had cracked munich grain which was not mashed, only steeped in hot water and the resultant wort was boiled for 30 mins.
What exactly do I have to do to get the munich to work best? (Temps/Techs etc.)

With the hops I was looking for clean-ish with some bitterness, some aroma but not so much as to make it fruit-laden. Kinda want some caramel/choc from the malt to come through without being like a thick-type of bock. If any of that makes sense.. :lol:
I haven't brewed with Tettnanger or Perle before, can you point me out some commercials that use them & I may of drank before?
Cheers all

 

[manticle]

Noble hops will give subtler flavours than in your face american hops. I'm not sure exactly which commercial beers use tett but it has a very subtle orange characteristic and is lovely. Cleanly bitter is noble hops all over. Alternatively try bittering with something like Northern Brewer.

Mash temps are basically between 60 and 70 (rough range, not exact) with higher temps giving less fermentable wort and sweeter result with more residual sugars (more body). Lower temps will give better attenuation, more fermentable wort and lighter body with drier finish. You can also play with high temps but long mash time or low temps but short mash time. I'd look at this when you're comfortable with the process though.

For now maybe mash around 65-66 degrees and hold the temp there for 30 -60 minutes. It is basically the same process as steeping so you may have inadvertently mashed last time or the amount of munich may not have been enough to make a difference. Mashing is just holding in hot water - the temperature allows enzymes within the grain to converts the starches to fermentable sugars. When you steep, you are soaking out flavour and colour from a grain that has already had its starches converted (or contains none). However if you 'steep' a base malt at the right temperature then the result will be starch conversion.

The terms are confusing but the processes are quite simple.

 

[enoch1973]

From the ingredients I would dispense with any sort of mashing and stick to an a straight up extract brew.
I'm not sure what I would replace the Munich Grain (something light that I could steep...)
Anyway... For what it's worth I have a Dark Ale in the Fermenter that's Boagsy's recipe.
I used Pride of Ringwood as I was trying to copy Coopers Dark Ale.
Whether is tastes like it remains to be seen. Boagsy thought his tasted awesome after a few months.
If it helps ingredients were:
For 23 litres
3kg Pale LME

150g Carafa II
150g Caramunich II
200g Chocolate Malt (around 1200 EBC)

20g Pride of Ringwood @ 60mins
20g Willamette @20mins
20g Willamette @ 10 mins
15g Willamette @ 0 mins
Dry-hopped with 20g Willamette @ day 4
Fingers crossed...
Edit: used US05 - fermented great @ 16c

 

[Daniel.lear]

If you wanted to use the munich, then you would need to mash it in about 2.5-3L/kg of grain at about 65 degrees for an hour (keeping things simple) you can do this easily using a pot on the stove, a blanket or towel and a colander. There are a few threads kicking about on this.

Using this method you would be doing a partial mash, you could mash say:
1 kilo of munich,
150g of Chocolate,
150g of CaraMunich III,
150g of Carafa I.

Strain the liquid and rinse grain with 80 degree water to make say 10L.

Boil this for one hour. at the start of the boil add your bittering hops.

Add the extract in the last min of the boil.

These figures are a guide only but should get you on your way.

I agree with the other advice give WRT hops anything noble is great pick one and have a play, cant go wrong.

Leary

Beaten to it.

 

[Noxious]

Hi manticle, by that description I did mash the munich last year. Don't feel so bad now haha. Thanks for that..
I will check out what nobles they have at the shops next time I go.
Sounds nice Pete, wish I could afford to spend that much on delicious hops but this year is not so kind to me, i'll have to use some restraint or I won't be brewing more than 2 batches!

 

[Noxious]

Ok Leary, I can fit about 8 L in the pot so I will change those figures to suit.
Can't wait to get this thing brewing now!
Cheers all

 

[losp]

i think that would go well with tettnang. hellatauer or hersbrucker.

 

[Noxious]

Thanks I think I'll go with the only noble hops then, how does this modified recipe sound now..

Light LME 1.5 kg
Light DME 1.0 kg
Munich 0.5 kg
Vienna 0.3 kg
Choc 0.1 kg
Crystal 0.1 kg

Hallertau 8% 20gm/60 mins (19 IBU)
Tettnang 5% 15mg/10 mins (3 IBU)
Tettnang or Hallertau 20gm dry?

SafLager S-23

What say the people who know?
Cheers all

 

[technoicon]

I did a extract Dark Lager that just finished. not to sure about it was made up of left over stuff from be for i started all grain. but think it'll be good after a couple of weeks.

1.5kg Coopers Dark Malt
Dextrose 2kg

Perle 15g @ 60m
Horizon 20g @ 30m
Horizon 10g @ 5m

(10l Boil)

OG 1048
FG 1011

used 2kg of dextrose because I put to much water in and it was about 26l in the fermenter. smaller batches i would probably use 1kg.